Pain Tolerance and Stupidity

by John Fontana on Dec 17, 2009 5:14 PM EST in Lightning Team News

To be a coach in pro sports, you don't just have to inspire your roster, but you have to be involved -- teaching, judging talent, putting together the best lineup for each game. And of course, knowing when to say when for the best interests of your hockey team and franchise.

That being said, it's not a position where you should risk the future of young players by letting them judge how much ice time they get or how ready they are to return from injury. We saw this with Steven Stamkos playing against Colorado: Rick Tocchet let him play despite not being able to take face offs and take shots. Basically playing a neutered Stamkos who judged himself ready to play when he most certainly wasn't.

What good was it to let Stamkos decide his own fate? Does it coddle Tocchet's own ego of wanting toughness and grit in his players?

Now it's Victor Hedman. Big Vik took a slap shot off his foot yesterday and it's swollen up. Unable to participate in the morning skate at Joe Louis Arena, Hedman is a game time decision for tonight's match up with the Red Wings. Hedman's aware the Lightning need their best lineup together tonight:

"It's very close," Hedman said. "But it's also uncomfortable. If I don't feel 100 percent I shouldn't play. We need guys to be at 100 percent. But we need these two points. I want to be on the ice and help to get those."

But isn't the best lineup the one that lets Hedman get healthy for the long season yet to come? Or is it the one that makes sure he shows he can tolerate pain?

Tocchet is quoted in the same article and this just disturbs me as a coach who isn't drawing the line on his players.

"I don't know if he's going to play tonight or not," coach Rick Tocchet said. "We'll ice it today and see if he can put his boot on."

Tocchet said the issue is more pain tolerance than anything else.

"You leave it up to the player," he said. "Pain tolerance and ice. I don't know anything else."

For those of you who see this as a throwback to the days of yore, ask yourself this: Is it better to risk the long term health of the Tampa Bay Lightning's young stars or to revisit nostalgia of players like Bob Probert and Tocchet himself?

Putting players at risk of worsening an injury -- not a cosmetic one, not a cut or busted teeth, not a black eye, but a bruised or broken bone -- where did we see this before? Oh yes, I recall, the 2008-09 Tampa Bay Lightning season. 22 different defensemen used by the Bolts, 52 different players in all. One of the highlights was Mike Smith playing regularly after suffering a concussion and putting his career in jeopardy by aggravating his concussion and suffering post concussion symptoms that ended his season. Smith has not been the same player as he was before the injury in December of 2008.

Ice and pain tolerance does not make up for the damage done by trying to prove grit, and a head coach should know better than to just let his guys go, regardless. That's a mandate in any league, not "if you're ready to go, you are going", or failing to be able to say "you're sitting" to an injured player. That's what's put Stamkos at risk, that's what will put Hedman at risk, that's what ruined Mike Smith. A failure of a coach to judge.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... And "ice and pain tolerance" are not going to improve the overall play of a hockey club that is being led further to ruin. After last season, you would expect Tocchet to havelearned that lesson.

[This post was last edited by John Fontana, 12/17/09 5:50 PM EST ]

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Frightning!

I’m surprised you didn’t start it with “Dear Bill.” As you know, I totally disagree with this. I guess that’s what makes the world go ‘round. Maybe I’m naive in thinking the doctors can separate injury from pain. If the player can play through pain and not risk injury according to a doctor, they should be able to play, and yes…at that point it does show leadership. I think hockey is now and always has been the toughest of sports and the owners assume a certain risk right from the start. I think to blame coaches for players playing when doctors ok it is misguided.

WB Philp

by LightningShout on Dec 17, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

But why does having a high pain tolerance and wanting to play make someone a leader? That makes no sense to me. I’ve been there, and I’ve done that, and it was all for purely selfish reasons.

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 17, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with Bill

I broke my finger playing hockey (not nearly the same level, but still). The doctor told me the fracture wasn’t all the way through the bone, and it will hurt (badly) but it won’t get any worse. I could continue normal activities as long as I could take the pain. If that is what the doctors are tell the players, it does show leadership and personal sacrifice if they are willing to ignore personal comfort in order to help the team.

Now, there are exceptions. And here’s where coaching stuff comes in. If the pain is making player X play at 90%, and player Y at 100% is > player X at 90%, then the team should play player Y. However, I would argue that Hedman at 90% is still a top 5 D-man on this team. Also, if there is ANY chance the player could exacerbate the injury, they should not play. But that’s up to the doctor.

by TampaFL on Dec 17, 2009 9:55 PM EST reply actions

See, my problem lies at the Injured player X versus healthy player Y.

Lets forget who we are talking about here with Hedman first but the injury. The player can’t fit his skate on to begin with because fo the swelling. That’s a sign of how bad the injury is. You can ice it and shrink it — but when you have other options available than player X and his swollen foot, why push it? Especially if he hasn’t skated?

Is hedman better than the majority of our defense? yes. Is a Hedman-playing-but-can’t-skate-cand-therefore-can’t-play-regular-shifts better than the defense? No. Is risking worsening the injury more important than getting Hedman healthy? Does the game matter that much? No. If this is the playoffs, that’s different.

Think of the Stamkos injury now. He couldn’t take faceoffs, he could not shoot the puck but he was able to play. What was his contribution in the Colorado game? You can’t shoot, you can’t take faceoffs and you’re a center… You’re neutered but you’re good to go otherwise? When the Lightning have a healthy center on recall from Norfolk at their disposal?

That’s a no brainer decision as a coach – you go with Blair Jones and let Stamkos get the night off. You’re not helping the team if you cannot play the position.

Neither player was at 90 percent in these isntances. Ryan Malone (Colorado game) probably was, and he went. But Stamkos pushed it — for no gain. Did it show grit? To Tocchet, sure. It didn’t show me anything besides personal pride (“Gotta play cuz I gotta play. Even if it hurts the team.”)

It’s ultimately the coach’s decision who is in the lineup. He has full say if a banged up guy sits or plays in the end. So saying it’s not on Tocchet at all is passing the buck.

To strive, to seek, to find, and to forever keep it Raw. Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 17, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions

I tend to agree...

But you are attributing Player X playing to selfishness. I disagree with that. A player plays and should want to play and should fight to play.

If I am player X and a DOCTOR tells me I can’t make an injury any worse by playing, I would want to play. Now, if I am not effective, its up to the coach to sit me. So if you think a player should be sitting, blame the coach, not the player’s selfishness.

by TampaFL on Dec 18, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions

Re-read the last two sections

Yeah, I say why a player tries to force it — but I say this is ultimately a coaches decision. I didn’t say that it’s totally selfishness. The entire article that I wrote faulted coaching for just saying “Ice it and pain tolerance” and seemingly siding with those who will play, hurt the team or not.

A coach fills the lineup card, and I’ve had the argument thrown back at me that a coach can’t stop a hurt player from playing if a trainer says he’s good to go. When a coach makes up the lineup card? Suddenly he has no say in his lineup? (You didn’t make these point, so I am not gearing this directly at you)

To strive, to seek, to find, and to forever keep it Raw. Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 18, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions

This should tell you everything. So, yes, it really does all come back to the coach. Via Twitter:

@erlendssontrib Victor Hedman said he feels good and he “hopes the coachs pick him” to play tonight #TBLightning

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 18, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions

Player X may be playing for selfish reasons. There are plenty of reasons to want to play, after all. Just because you want people to be noble about it doesn’t mean that they really are.

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 18, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

I’m going to agree with John on this one. The Lightning are terrible right now, and yes each game matters, but if your player needs a night off so he can have the time to rest and heal, then somebody needs to make that call. That call maybe should be made by the medical, where they say “hedman’s foot is the size of a football….he should not play”. I have a feeling Stamkos has been injured for a couple of weeks (maybe from that time during practice?) and has been playing through it, and I think it has been hurting his game more than 1 game he would have missed to take time to heal.

This is not the playoffs, this only halfway through the regular season. The Lightning have cap concerns calling up a guy from the AHL in situations like these since they are only sitting at the cap floor. And these games were roadtrip games, not home games where you would want to showcase your stars to your ticket holders.

The Hockey Bay, Benched Whale

by Dani Toth on Dec 18, 2009 12:37 AM EST reply actions