A hit like that, don't even try to excuse it
by John Fontana on Oct 2, 2011 1:47 PM EDT
in Lightning Team News
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PrintLast night's Tampa Bay Lightning vs. Montreal Canadiens game wasn't televised in the Tampa Bay Market... Which was the truth for the majority of the Lightning's pre-season. There were other sports distractions locally anyway. So even if the game was on TV, it would have likely been missed. It's only pre-season, after all.
But there was an incident we heard about on the radio broadcast of the game - a hit by forward Ryan Malone, a fight... What was missing in the grand scheme was context. What happened?
It wasn't pretty
Chris Campoli was laid out by Malone with an arm to the head. You watch the video enough times, you may start o read Malone's post-hit actions (just before he gets jumped) as acknowledgment that he screwed up. That, or he was preparing to defend himself from any challengers.
What you cannot take from this video, is a justification for Malone to get only a slap on the wrist for the incident and nothing more. Lets be frank and honest here, we've commended Brendan Shanahan's work so far as VP of Player Safety because he was not being limp with fines and suspensions. If a questionable or illegal hit happened -- boom. You were punished. There was no attempt by he or the league to make excuses or show leniency with a "hockey play" label slapped on a bad hit.
(In sharp contrast, "good old" Colin Campbell gave in once again to the benefit-of-the-doubt when it came to Wayne Simmonds on-ice slur directed at Sean Avery. There was no action taken.)
Ryan Malone will be sitting to start the NHL season. How many games is anyone's guess until Shanahan hands down his decree. Chris Campoli was reminded that you're supposed to keep your head up. But a headshot is a headshot and there can be no tolerance on hits like this.
In a twist, however, this may clear up the Lightning's roster situation - or at least makes it easier to manage the team before Wednesday's cut-down to 23 players. The Lightning have 26 in camp, 25 if you do not include the injured Scott Jackson (who remains with the club for treatment purposes). A suspended Ryan Malone reduces the roster to 24 players for the start of the season. Who the odd-man out will be remains to be seen.
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Gotta say, John, it's less clear cut to me than it seems to be to you.
It’s not a cut and dried situation in which Campoli is the victim and Malone the aggressor. I watch that video and I see indications that Campoli saw Malone coming and still ducked his head into the hit. I have to agree with Corcoran that Malone was aiming for the shoulder, not the head. Whether it meets the standard of “reckless” or not is another matter, and one I’m not so certain on.
In any event, Bugsy has no history of suspensions, so “throwing the book at him” is not appropriate. To be consistent, unless Shanahan determines that the shot to the head was intentional, Boyes’s situation was more of a precedent than the others. Less than five games if he determines that it was reckless but not intentional. If he determines that it was intentional, he’ll need to be very, very clear what made him think so.
I do hope that whatever Shanahan does with Bugsy, he addresses very soon the issue of the responsibility of guys to protect themselves in situations like this.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I'm with you CA
I had started a fan post about this just before John posted this story. I had to go back and make some changes since this was posted. I agree 100% about the “reckless” comment. I’m not certain about that as well.
We are clearly in the minority on this one. I guess that’s what makes being a fan so much fun!
I want to try to clarify MY logic why it’s cut and dried, black and white:
Because this isn’t Colin Campbell calling the shots any more.
The NHL, as a league, has collectively been inconsistent and tolerant of blindside hits, dirty hits, or accidental contact. The problem is — hits to the ehad are hits to the head. You want to protect players? You want to stop the head shots – incidental or intentional? The policy should be zero tolerance.
Look at the NFL. Does the league simply stop penalizing players for holding because it wasn’t intentional? Does a facemask penalty get waved off because it was accidental?
For far too long, the NHL has had a notion of empathy when calling the shots. “Well, he didn’t REALLY mean it”. That tolerance turned to leniency, and every year leniency goes above-and-beyond until someone gets hurt.
If the league is serious about headshots, there’s no room for trying to define intentions of the player. He did it or he didn’t. And if he did it, there should be repercussions. It doesn’t have to be a lengthy suspension – but it should be one that says “We can’t have this.”
Ryan Malone is no headhunter. Ryan Malone wasn’t intentionally going for the head. Does it make the hit any less of a shot to the head? Does it redefine where contact was made?
Campoli was taught a lesson by getting his bell rung. It’s fortunate that he’s not concussed. Lack of injury shouldn’t forgive the incident. That’s what Colin Campbell would have done, and Campbell screwed up league discipline with that type of incompetence.
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
The problem with your logic is that the policy isn’t zero tolerance. The case for that is separate from the question of Ryan Malone’s responsibility under the existing rule 48. In fact, rule 48 has contingencies built into it. The hit has to meet BOTH requirements: the head is targeted AND the head is the principal point of contact. Thus a guy who misses his body check and makes incidental contact with the head is not in violation. Shanahan has taken into account whether the player being hit moves “immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit.” The logical corollary is that if a player were to do so, the hitting player would be less responsible. This is distinct from a zero tolerance policy.
Now, there is certainly a case for changing the rule. It has worked in international competition and in juniors. It wouldn’t be hard to convince me that it’s a good idea. But I feel that you are conflating two separate questions here: whether Malone’s hit on Campoli violates the rule as it stands, versus whether all contact with the head ought to be illegal.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Understand where you’re going with your thoughts, but I would be shocked if Bugsy plays before the 13th of October (three games).
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
I’m not predicting anything. I don’t know how Shanahan will read it. My gut tells me he’ll say it was reckless and give 2-3 games, but I could be wrong in either direction. The most important thing, whatever he does, is that he makes that explanation clear enough for people to follow his reasoning and makes his decision consistent with what’s been the case for others this preseason. If, for whatever reason, he decides not to suspend him, he needs to explain that, too.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I think Shanny’s done a good job of that thus far; I wouldn’t expect the explanation to be any less this time around (regardless of which way the suspension goes).
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
Also, there is, in fact, a question of whether the head was a principal point of contact in this particular hit. Somehow we have to put together all the different camera angles to decide that. Slip Mahoney analyzed the video in his Fan Post to make a case that contact with the head was incidental, and Corcoran did so on Twitter this morning. It’s important, given the uncertainty about what is legal and what isn’t under this new rule, to take that sort of thing seriously.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
The guy ducked into Malones elbow, Malone was going in for a hit, but that's hockey.
The thing that scares me is we’re gonna start seeing guys go head first into other players to get penalties etc.
Malone wasn’t being dirty and he wasn’t going for the guys head, stuff happens, let it go.
"I'd run over my mother to win the Super Bowl." - Russ Grimm
Disagree completely.
Look at the video, and you’ll see in the slo-mo Malone raises his elbow intentionally (assumption made by me—I obviously am not Bugsy so don’t know his intent) to clock Campoli.
The complete antithesis to this was what didn’t happen the game before in Montreal. Gionta had a clear shot at the downward looking head of the Lighting player (Bergeron, if I’m not mistaken), but instead Gionta skated by the Lightning player, intentionally missing a potentially devastating body check.
“Good hockey play” does not describe the same plays today as they would have in the days of Howe or even Gretzky. The players are too fast, too big, too well-practiced for the game rules not evolve to protect the very players that make the game possible.
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
Seems to me that he lifts his whole body into the hit, like you’re supposed to. The arm comes up in that process, not as a “weapon” targeting the head. Again, all I’m saying is that there is a question about this hit, like there will be about others. We’re getting into the gray areas now. How Shanahan answers that question is going to be very important.
And you’re right about the Gionta thing. But there’s got to be some way to make a north-south hit legally (or safely, if you want to put it that way), without just passing the hit by every time. There has to be more than just the two choices—illegal hit or no hit at all. The rule wasn’t meant to eliminate north-south hitting altogether.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Lifting your body into a hit (a la Downie on the Penguins player last year) is one thing: lifting your body as a part of driving your elbow up is another. Sure it’s a very, very fine line, but one of which I think Bugsy will—and justly—find him on the “suspended” side.
Don’t get me wrong: I am as big a fan as the next guy for the “big hit”—especially when it’s someone like Brewer or Ohlund dishing it out. We are unfortunately in that time in our sport where the players need to be held to a standard of safety. With the gear they wear now it protects them very well from career-shortening hits to the glass and other players. However, that same equipment that protects players now can be used as effective tools against lesser-protected parts of the body.
Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I once suggested to my brother a simple solution to the NFL’s concussion problem would be to takeaway helmets from players, thereby removing their sense of invulnerability. I think the same would work in hockey by removing elbow and shoulder pads—though it will never happen.
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
I just watched another half dozen times and I still see it as closer to the borderline than you do. I don’t see it as him driving with his elbow, leading with the elbow, or trying to aim with his elbow. Just thank goodness I don’t have to make this decision.
I agree that the equipment is part of the problem, but that can certainly be mitigated without taking the protection away. There are some experimental elbow and shoulder pads out there that have padding on the outside as well as the inside, so they are—in theory—less damaging on impact. Terry Crisp did a segment on them last season during one of the Preds broadcasts. I haven’t heard anything about whether they are actively being considered by the league though.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
No need to be tongue-in-cheek about it...
I’ve seen this argument in multiple articles and it’s pretty convincing, IMO. It seems extremely logical that better equipment results in more reckless play. There was an excellent article I read just a few months back about this. I’ll try and find it.
by Michael Gallimore on Oct 3, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The opportunity was there, but you're assuming...
…Brian Gionta had any interest in attempting a full-speed collision. That, I highly doubt.
Also, IF Campoli doesn’t put his head down and lean in, that’s as clean a hit as they come. You’re still allowed to physically separate a player who’s presently in possession from the puck. Until that changes, that would have been a “good hockey play”, from a technical standpoint, in any generation.
My beef with Malone on that play is the context of the game with which he delivered that hit. I know he’s a warrior and I know what it’s like to have that aggressive instincts, but you’ve also got to have the presence of mind to lay off in certain situations. Down 4-1 with just about 10 minutes remaining in an exhibition game? Exactly the kind of situation. Good intentioned and technically sound or not, it’s borderline instigation.
by Michael Gallimore on Oct 3, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Gionta did try to decapitate Dwayne Roloson within about 5 minutes of that MAB play, so I’m assuming that he has no philosophical objection to making contact at high speed, ;)
And if Malone should have looked at the score and eased up, didn’t Campoli have similar reasons not to make himself vulnerable by lunging forward?
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Well the NHL sees it how I did.
And like I said, if they don’t make the right call, as they did, players are gonna start putting their heads down to get a penalty.
"I'd run over my mother to win the Super Bowl." - Russ Grimm
“No history” means only he’ll sit for a handful of games, not double-digit games.
The only good thing about Bugsy’s hit is that it should win the category of “Best Matt Cooke Hit Made by a Player Other Than Matt Cooke.”
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
Brett Connolly
This actually seems like a perfect opportunity put Connolly on a 9-game tryout. His future with this team is probably at LW anyway. Give him a few games with the big boys before banishing him to juniors.
Not really sure where the bad hit is...
You know as a hockey player to always keep your head up. If anything Campoli lost his balance and ended up right in Malone’s trolley tracks. While Malone DID make contact to the head, it was definitely NOT intentional and we all know he is NOT that type of player. Campoli even saw him coming. Malone’s arm never went up like your post here states, that was clean elbow tucked shoulder down check.
Off topic, that guy barked up the wrong tree trying to fight Malone, he doesn’t do it much but when he does he throws it down lol.
[IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/elimstuff/elimsigsimple-1.jpg[/IMG]
To change the subject a little
I think Tyrell’s the odd man out. I’ve not seen much impressive about his play this preseason—and all the talk has been of other players—other than the SPT article talking about how awkward it would be for him to get sent to Norfolk.
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
Much in agreement.
I see Norfolk as an opportunity for Tyrell, though, to attempt to round out his offensive game somewhat. To date, he’s extremely limited as an NHLer and while I do think there’s latent offensive potential there, I don’t think it ever emerges playing on Tampa’s 4th line. He should see significant minutes in Norfolk.
by Michael Gallimore on Oct 3, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So tell me why I shouldn’t ban you for being disrespectful.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Oct 3, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You probably should. It’s unlikely that I’ll ever contribute in a constructive manner after being repeatedly treated with disrespect by Johnny. I’m simply returning the favor.
You’ve been nothing but sweet, Cassie, so I harbor no grudges towards you or the rest of the Raw Charge crew.
I’m very protective of my friends, so I won’t be so sweet if you keep it up. You don’t have to like him, but you can at least give him the common courtesy of being respectful – just like anyone else. And if you can’t, then don’t comment on his stuff or on his comments.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Oct 3, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Malone's fault
Malone goes for a normal hockey hit and suddenly Campoli is with his head down, going straight at him. What is Malone supposed to do in that situation? He didn’t blindside Campoli, didn’t charge him or lean into the Habs’ player.
Unintentional contact to the head (actually in this case, part head, part shoulder), it’s ugly but it happens. In game penalty is enough.
Following the Lightning all the way from Brasil!
That was a bad hit, no getting around that. I personally say it was a dirty hit. Yes, Campoli leaned into it, but Malone was throwing the glancing blow that always results in some kind of injury. When your coming head-on, hit the guy in the chest, not the shoulder, knee or head. Its just a super dangerous play. Not sure how he didnt get suspended, but whatever.
I’m putting here for reflection later on in the season…. #14 Tomas [Fleischmann] is getting a 40G season.
by RPC on Sep 17, 2011 5:20 PM MDT
Find me on Twidduh And look at my Marmots
Uh...?
Yes, Campoli leaned into it,
When your coming head-on, hit the guy in the chest,
See the problem there?
BTW, hits to the shoulder are legal.
by Michael Gallimore on Oct 3, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
Malone is 6’4". Campoli is 6’0". So, again, you should at least grasp an inkling of Shanahan’s logic.
by Michael Gallimore on Oct 3, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This isnt about shoulder-shoulder hits head on. Malone put a glancing hit that 95% of the time result in injuries. Even drunk-with-power Shanaban said so:
There are elements about the hit that we don’t like — specifically, the principal point of contact being the head and that it was not a full-body check.
Even had Campoli not leaned into it, Malone was still committing to the most dangerous play of the game. Its a stupid play, give him one game to make a statement that those hits will not be tolerated.
I’m putting here for reflection later on in the season…. #14 Tomas [Fleischmann] is getting a 40G season.
by RPC on Sep 17, 2011 5:20 PM MDT
Find me on Twidduh And look at my Marmots
by Chris S Roberts on Oct 4, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I vehemently disagree that it was dirty,
which implies that Malone understood the hit to be outside of the rules and did it anyway. It was, however, borderline reckless and quite dangerous. And again, I really would like to see a video explanation of why this and the Edler hit were legal.
And shouldn’t you be trying to nurse a goalie back to health or something, instead of stirring up pots at rival fan sites? ;-)
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
A couple of things about the play
Malone was obviously going for the big hit and used Purcell as a screen, and built up a good head of steam. Campoli reached to get more distance with the puck from the reaching Purcell which brought his head down to shoulder level, an unfortunate confluence of events that nearly lead to a serious injury. My question is why is Malone looking to bury a guy so hard in the waning moments of a blowout preseason loss? I think the actions of Malone and Campoli contributed equally to the ensuing hit and that that is the reason Buggsy wasn’t suspended.
Don in St Pete
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