So, Tampa Bay is supposed to be the bad guy...
by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 11:17 AM EST
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PrintSo Comcast has set the media narrative, as we've seen it on Versus since the 2011 NHL Playoffs when the Tampa Bay Lightning kept surprising the big-shots of the NHL: Guy Boucher is the villain, the 1-3-1 system is evil and bad for the game of hockey. Last night, the Philadelphia Flyers "stood up" for the NHL by avoiding playing hockey at times in order to make a statement against the 1-3-1. The Flyers are heroes!
Right, and Mike Milbury was a great General Manager... And Pierre McGuire is a highly sought after "monster" of a commentator who fans universally adore.
Just like Sidney Crosby vs. Alex Ovechkin was a manufactured rivalry, the powers-that-be have decided to make a statement that the Tampa Bay Lightning are the bad guys, and must be stopped. Last night was their opportunity to reinforce the narrative with a national audience on a national cable network that is coincidentally owned by the same media entity that owns the Philadelphia Flyers hockey franchise.
While plenty of teams - both this season and last season - have been able to keep their offense going (in bucket loads, in some instances) while playing against the Lightning, the Flyers (who lead the league in goals scored) somehow couldn't handle the malicious 1-3-1, even while they knew full well that the Lightning were playing without two of their key defensemen in Victor Hedman and Mattias Ohlund. Some, Milbury for one, suggested Philly was standing up for hockey by stalling.
What kind of twisted logic is this? You toss the dice, you play the game your way against their way and you do the best you can. You don't congratulate a team, especially of the offensive caliber as Flyers, for turtling.
Now what if this same shit had transpired in a Flyers-Devils game? Or any other rivalry game for that matter? "The opposing system must be stopped" narrative would never surface. You'd more likely hear something more along the lines of, "what the bloody hell are you doing? Play hockey!"
But it's convenient that the Flyers were playing against the Bondian Villain in Guy Boucher. He and his evil, indomitable, just-over-.500, Bolts have to be stopped. For the greater good of marketing, the 1-3-1 must be stopped! Who better to do it than the benevolent Flyers?
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This whole situation has pissed me off. Philadelphia is too afraid to play against Tampa’s system apparently, and them sitting in there own zone not playing hockey is the right thing to do?
I had a few friends mention this to me, and I couldn’t watch the game at work because it was televised and Game Center blocks those games… I did take a look at the highlights and I only have one thing to say about it. Normally Tampa would have one player forechecking in that situation. I didn’t see how the play unfolded (if it was a dump and chase, end of a penalty kill, or if Guy Boucher was doing that on purpose) but WTF was Philly doing.
Things would be a lot more ugly if Tampa lost the game.
If #26 doesn't get retired. I'm switching teams.
Actually...
This started against Washington in the regular season last year. We do it regularly. Read my 1-3-1 post from the playoffs last year. It’s a big element of our game…stack the neutral zone…ESPECIALLY when playing a team that constantly relies on speed through the neutral zone to set up against opponents. Why wouldn’t it make sense to play a defense that if nothing else slows fast offenses down? I mean…isn’t that the point of defense???
Let the losers hate.
"System Trumps Chumps" - Tampa t
by tankerkevo on Nov 10, 2011 12:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why wouldn’t it make sense to play a defense that if nothing else slows fast offenses down?
I don’t think the point is that you shouldn’t play a legal defense that slows offense down. I think the point is that a defense which doesn’t pressure the puck and slows the game down to a crawl shouldn’t be legal in the first place.
Neither coach is necessarily wrong here, but the rule book has to figure out a way to get the trap out of the game it is terrible for hockey.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
No that’s an assumption. The problem I have is that all of this talk of “the trap ruining the game” is not backed up with actual evidence. It’s a story that’s been passed down, but where’s the proof?
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
You couldn’t objectively prove melting the ice before they played on it would ruin hockey.
It is an issue of opinion, and in a lot of people’s opinion games where nothing but trapping happens suck and they’d like to see them removed.
This isn’t provable or disprovable. It is an opinion matter.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Then what exactly is the basis for your claim that “the the rule book has to figure out a way to get the trap out of the game it is terrible for hockey” or that it is equivalent to “melting the ice before they played on it”? Because the fact that some people don’t like it is just a really bad argument.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
"the the rule book has to figure out a way to get the trap out of the game it is terrible for hockey"
In my opinion that would make for better hockey.
Because the fact that some people don’t like it is just a really bad argument.
Is it? Isn’t it the goal(aside from making money) of the league to put the best product on the ice?
The ice melted comment is that you can’t objectively prove that even something that absurd would ruin hockey. Would you want to watch ice hockey with no ice? I’m guessing no, though it is possible you might for whatever reason. But could you objectively prove that the game is ruined by it?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
You can’t make business decisions based on “so-and-so says they don’t like it” without knowing whether a majority of your customers actually don’t like it. Do teams stop selling tickets when they are winning with strong defensive systems? No, and they in fact often increase ticket sales. Do teams stop selling tickets when they lose while using strong defensive systems? Yes. What’s the difference in those two scenarios? winning vs losing, not defense.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
I’m pretty sure the same number of games are won every year, though maybe with different allotment to different teams. Making one team win more makes on team lose more. Keeping trapping in the NHL doesn’t seem like a net win. Winning sells, unless you’re the NJ Devils.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
What do total number of wins in the league have to do with how many tickets are being sold? The total number of wins in the league has always been a zero-sum formula, before the forward pass, before expansion in the 60s, before the butterfly revolutionized goaltending, before the salary cap. None of those things changed the total number of wins in the league, but all of them eventually led to more tickets being sold.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
No, I think you CAN objectively prove the "melting" hypothesis.
Let’s play a hockey game outside, on a rainy day, and see whether the quality of the game is impacted.
No that’s an assumption. The problem I have is that all of this talk of "the trap ruining the game" is not backed up with actual evidence. It’s a story that’s been passed down, but where’s the proof?
Well, there was Lemieux hating on it (“the trap has destroyed hockey” or something like that) and the immense decline in shots and scoring, though you could attribute that more closely with clutch-and-grab as opposed to trap.
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by red army line on Nov 10, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
It's interesting...
the VS crew seems to think that the team with out the puck are the ones responsible for advancing the puck. What kind of logic is that?
VS/NBC Sports is worse than a homer minor league radio coverage team when it comes to being shills to hype the north east market. They are simply creating hype, a storyline and that’s all; but there is one thing to note…
NJ’s trap in the 90’s was met with a lot of criticism of how it slowed the game down, how’d that work out for NJ? System always trumps chumps, always. I say let’em be the ones to hate how we dominate.
"System Trumps Chumps" - Tampa t
by tankerkevo on Nov 10, 2011 11:52 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Well, all the teams VS likes to follow are aggressive forecheck teams. There is that.
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by red army line on Nov 10, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
I think they’re all Comcast country too, to be honest. Leaving the obvious out with Philly, DC has a CSN channel, right? Doesn’t Boston as well? Who else?
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Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
There’s Comcast SportSouth here in Nashville. I think it covers Atlanta as well as Nashville and maybe also Memphis, but I don’t know that for sure.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
DC has CSN. Boston games are on NESN…here’s the list. I feel the CSN thing though is correlation, not causation. The “appealing market” thing is driving where CSN sets up, I feel, more than anything else.
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by red army line on Nov 11, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Strategically, the thought process behind Philly’s game plan last night is baffling. It would be like the Green Bay Packers gameplanning to get a field goal and cling to that 3-point lead while running out the clock against the Indianapolis Colts.
by Clark J Brooks on Nov 10, 2011 11:53 AM EST reply actions
Considering how the Colts are doing this year?
That’ll work.
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by Paperwork Ninja on Nov 10, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
But when that was employed by Tony Dungy....
And the Buccaneers – it made sense because the offense SUCKED in Tampa Bay, and they relied on D. Oft times, the only offensive numbers were generated by the defense.
But I digress. Wrong topic, wrong site for it at least ;-)
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
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by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Point being, if you have a potent offense and you’re playing against a team that struggles defensively, why in the world would you scrap your original game plan, one that plays to your strength? Isn’t winning games about imposing your will on your opponent? Now, if the Flyer had gotten out to a lead and then employed the stall, I wouldn’t have liked it, but there would have been some sort of logic behind it. To open a game with it, saying “come and get us” when all the Lightning had to do was say “no” baffles me.
by Clark J Brooks on Nov 10, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
I said this over at BoC, but I thought the whole thing was hilarious. I had never seen such a thing done before. Wow!
As to blame- well both in my view if blame is to be dished out. Flyers had the puck and opted to do nothing. TB didn’t have the puck and normally if you don’t, you do try to get it.
What TB should have done, and I would have been peeing my pants if they had, is put their hands on their hips as if to say “really now, aren’t you going to try” :)
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by Angy on Nov 10, 2011 12:12 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
+1
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Rec’d.
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by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Now it’s Wyshynski vomiting this crap at Puck Daddy.
Logic has been completely murdered.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 12:26 PM EST reply actions
hmmm?
I’m reading his article right now, and it seems fairly balanced. He noted that it was an interesting dynamic that all the comments seem to be blaming the Lightning, and while he does say that the Lightning could’ve halted the display, the rule change ultimately tossed out is one that prevents the Flyers, not the Lightning, from playing their game. He also claimed the Lightning as “the lesser of two evils” and blamed the Flyers for “refusing to, you know, play hockey.”
By the way, I might support that proposed rule change.
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
He does calls the Lightning “the lesser of two evils” at the end of the text. But it kind of goes against a lot of stuff implied (and not so implied) on his text, like this:
There were two people who could have stopped that abhorrent spectacle last night, and they weren’t on the Flyers. The first guy was the Tampa Bay player skating near the Flyers’ blue line, refusing to force the play. That’s because the second guy, Guy Boucher, isn’t allowing him to slip the leash.
This:
This isn’t an indictment of what the Flyers did, because it’s legal (now) and because seeing the tables turned on the trap was a perverse joy.
And this:
“The Flyers lost the game, 2-1 in overtime, but they won the chess match.”
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
not really
he makes no secret about not being a fan of the Lightning strategy, but none of that indicates that the Flyers strategy wasn’t worse. The only statement that really indicates otherwise is the first one you quoted, which to me looks like an intentional exaggeration or a “beyond the obvious culprits of Lavi or Pronger” statement. The second just says that he hates the trap (fair enough) and that the Flyers strategy is legal (which it is, as is the trap). That doesn’t indicate an indictment of the Lightning’s strategy for being anything worse than boring. And the third is just a point about the Lightning running out less 1-3-1 later in the game, which is a fair point and says nothing about which strategy was better or worse. As it turns out, bringing the Bolts out of the 1-3-1 may’ve been bad for Philly, since they did lose.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
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by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
The Bolts wouldn’t keep the 1-3-1 the whole game anyway. They never do. Boucher changes his strategy all the time depending on the situation so they didn’t win any chess match Hartnell, Pronger, Laviolette or any Comcast “expert” may talk about.
And that first quote is just absurd.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Jay, the chess match statement asserts that Philly forced Boucher out of his system, which is simply untrue. Boucher stopped using the 1-3-1 at the same point that he normally stops using the 1-3-1—when the score wasn’t tied anymore. I’m with Rafael on this one. Wysh is entitled to his opinion but he’s making a lot of assumptions that show how little he has watched this team.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
he’s making a lot of assumptions that show how little he has watched this team
And this is the case of every simple one of the Boucher haters. They just don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
single*
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I was somewhat on board with Wysh’s article just because it at least looked at both sides, but the best one I’ve read comes fresh outta the great white north (perhaps unsurprisingly) – Mark Spector of Sportsnet
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/11/10/spector_mind_trap/
He’s not a fan of the trap (which I guess no one is now), but he at least makes the most logical claim of any of the major writers – Philly threw a tantrum last night.
yep, that was well said
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
that's a fair point by both of you
and I won’t disagree that Wysh is embellishing some of it (I think he admits to embellishing some things because of personal hatred of the trap). However, he does ultimately come down on the side that the Flyers are the team that should be forced to do something, which I wouldn’t call “vomiting this crap.” I’d call it a sound conclusion reached by reasonable argument that trumped his personal feelings of dislike and/or embellishment.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'd also like to note
that one of the Puck Daddy three stars went to Connolly, and a dishonorable mention went to the Flyers offense.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Just three games last night ans Brett scored an OT goal. He had to put the kid in.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
well we weren't in the "dishonorable mention" section and Philly was
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
aren’t the 3 stars NHL.com’s three stars? They’ve always been the same whenever I’ve looked.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
they may be, I don't frequent NHL.com
but I was more highlighting the “dishonorable mention” part
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, I admit I overreacted (a little =P) with “vomiting this crap”.
I’m still bitter from listening to Versus “experts” last night.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I understand
I’m debating on Canes Country, where they’re all upset at Paul Maurice and pining for Lavi.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed John. Very well put. I’ve written my own piece which my friend will be featuring on her blog… I will give you link as soon as it’s up.
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I was wondering what you would think about this
given the duel dual allegiance.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I've spent too much time trying to fight the good fight on the internet for this one but...
One thing that just appalls me from the peanut gallery is that Tampa Bay fans are the ones hammering out the long, detailed explanations of their stances, and the Philly fans are going “Hey, Tampa is wrong here. If you don’t agree, you must not know hockey.” It’s unbelievable.
The non-traditional market thing has worked against us to the point that we really have to know our stuff, and we still don’t get recognized for it.
It’s cool though, I guess we’ve got the ’04 Cup to catch our tears.
by RCA on Nov 10, 2011 1:21 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
rec'd
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t congratulate a team, especially of the offensive caliber as Flyers, for turtling.
Exactly what would you call dropping into a defensive shell where you do nothing but sit back? Is that not the definition of turtling?
And really the trap you guys play is not a 1-3-1, as the first one in that refers to a forechecker. You may be in that shape on the ice, but what you’er really doing is playing a 0-4-1. It’s a joke, it was a joke when New Jersey did it and I didn’t like it when we did it in our run in 2010.
Personally I don’t see how either side really gets a fault here as much as a system which allows Tampa to do absolutely nothing to pressure the puck on defense, but also does nothing to say Philly can’t sit there.
The bottom line though is that if you want to make the game more interesting you have to eliminate the trap which started this entire thing. Tampa Plays the trap just about every game, Philly doesn’t sit in the offensive zone every game. So….
Boring 1-0 games are one of the several reasons NHL fandom eroded and a lockout happened.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 1:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
counterpoint:
Tampa plays the trap every game and doesn’t encounter opponents who just sit back in their own zone. So. . .
Also, any definition of “turtling” that I’m familiar with applies to the team on offense. When you aren’t on offense, you’re generally supposed to focus on defense.
I will agree that both strategies were within the rules.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Also, any definition of "turtling" that I’m familiar with applies to the team on offense. When you aren’t on offense, you’re generally supposed to focus on defense.
Turtles go into their shell as an offensive measure? Never heard that one before.
Fighters turtle in a brawl as an offensive measure, when they are winning?
Turtling is by it’s very definition defensive. It fits Tampa far more than the Flyers in this case. The Flyers sat there and watch you turtle and it made for a boring hockey game. It isn’t a Tampa problem, it is an NHL problem. But these two teams exposed it for what it was unfortunately on National TV.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
prove it.
Seriously, prove that defensive systems that cut down on scoring both led to the lockout and are never exciting. Prove that “eliminating the trap” as you call it will get people to buy tickets.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
You’re arguing a terrible on ice product doesn’t hurt ticket sales?
I guess I can’t prove that, although common sense would say people are far more likely to watch good hockey than bad.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yes the lightning plays a very slow, very low scoring, very boring brand of hockey
Gerrout!!!! You have no idea what you are talking about
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
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When did I say that?
You’re making a straw man argument. I said slow boring hockey will sell less tickets than exciting, good hockey.
That is all I said.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
You can’t prove it. Because ticket sales are actually up. Because 1-0 games and playoff series battles between defensive teams have gotten very high ratings. I can provide evidence that convinces me that good defense is making hockey more popular. I don’t have to rely on “because I said so.”
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Besides
If anything were to hurt ticket sales, it’s the economy.
Case in point, the Wild are playing their best hockey in a while, have the brightest future they’ve ever had and have some pretty exciting players, yet they’ve been having trouble selling the X out, despite having a 9 year strong consecutive sellout streak from their very beginning, despite having some very ugly lineups.
It’s the economy, pure and simple.
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If anything were to hurt ticket sales, it’s the economy.
There isn’t one answer to what will or won’t hurt ticket sales. The economy is obviously going to have an effect on ticket sales. So does team performance, marketing, and all of that.
It isn’t anyone thing.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Because 1-0 games and playoff series battles between defensive teams have gotten very high ratings.
Really? Because you do realize when the trap was prevalent the NHL’s TV deal offered them no guaranteed money, correct?
I can provide evidence that convinces me that good defense is making hockey more popular.
Then post it.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
TB at Boston, Game 7 goalless for 50 minutes. Final score 1-0
Game 7 drew 2.55 million viewers nationally, the highest viewership for a Conference Final since 2002, and VERSUS’ best non-Stanley Cup Final ratings ever.http://puckthemedia.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/versus-1-on-friday-in-boston-and-tampa/
The Lightning, coming off its first playoff appearance in four years, has sold more than 10,000 full season tickets for next season, CEO Tod Leiweke said, doubling last season’s total of 5,000.
Then there’s the claim that fans won’t pay to watch the 1-3-1 system. Again, not true. In 2009-10, the Lightning were 21st in the NHL in attendance with an average of 15,497 fans per game. Last season, the Lightning ended up 17th in attendance, with their average fans per game going up to 17,268. So far this season, the Lightning are 8th in attendance, with an average of 19,150 fans per game. Funny, it seems like their attendance has increased in proportion to how many games they win.
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/11/10/why-tampa-bays-1-3-1-is-not-destroying-hockey/
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
by CAustin on Nov 10, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I loved his response to that
lol
"I'm a guy who works very hard and if I want something bad enough, I'm going to do anything possible to get it." Steven Stamkos
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This.
The Bruins-Lightning playoff series last year (as I’ve mentioned elsewhere here on RC) was a tale of two NZ-clogging teams. I challenge you to find a more exciting series during last year’s SCP.
"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984
second counterpoint:
Trapping Tampa are in the top ten in goals scored and bottom ten in goals allowed
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
You’ve got good offensive players, you’re going to score goals. And really my issue here isn’t with Tampa. It is with any team running a trap that doesn’t pressure the puck.
The Flyers did it in the Playoffs(though they had a forechecker) and won the ECF largely because of it and I didn’t like it. It makes for bad hockey, especially if you don’t fore check.
You can’t completely remove the trap, but you should at least have to fore check to some extent.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
The goal when you have the puck is to score goals
The goal when you don’t have the puck is to prevent a goal.
Philly wasn’t trying to score.
The Lightning were trying to prevent a score.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
The goal when you don’t have the puck is to prevent a goal.
Is it not also to get the puck back and score yourself? Were the Lightning doing that?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
They get the puck back when the trap succeeds. Duh.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
How can you defend just sitting on your own end with the puck?
It’s not like the Lightning are hard to score against
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
Seriously. That’s so true. We’ve been complaining about the overall team defense for how long now?
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Since about minute 1 of Game 1, hehe
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
…Of last season, no less.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
The same way I’d defend sitting in the neutral zone not even trying to get the puck. We’ve been horrible with turnovers.
It’s legal and it pisses the other team off.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think the difference here is that the Lightning did what they usually do – which is sit back and wait for the attacking team – but the Flyers didn’t do what they would normally do – which is attack.
Guys give up on forechecking at the tops of the circles all the time, usually for line changes, and you rarely see defensemen harassed behind the net when teams are trying to regroup. There’s a reason why teams are allowed to set up in their own defensive zone; it happens all the time. So why should the Lightning have attacked en masse when pretty much no one in the NHL does when the puck is under control by the opposing team in their own zone? That makes no sense.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
But it makes sense for the Flyers to attack a trap if they can sit back and wait for it to come after them?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Sure. Happens all the time – by every team in the NHL. Almost no one waits to be forechecked when they’re deep in their own zone. Teams are setting up a breakout play, and they want to initiate that.
Seriously, think about it. You’ve got the puck, you pass down to your defensemen, and you’re getting ready to break out into the neutral zone. You want to get it out of your own zone as fast as possible, especially before the other team can set up so you can get it thru the neutral zone easier. So why would you sit around and wait for the opposing team to get ready for you? That makes no sense. Your best chance to get it into the offensive zone is to walk thru a team that’s disorganized.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
You want to get it out of your own zone as fast as possible, especially before the other team can set up so you can get it thru the neutral zone easier. So why would you sit around and wait for the opposing team to get ready for you?
Tampa was already in place, they weren’t moving in position and aside from Pronger with the puck(in a circle no less) there wasn’t a single person on the ice moving anywhere.
You’re not wrong ad most of the time that is true, but I just don’t see this example is relevant when the trap was already set up and nobody was moving anywhere.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
The way to break any trap is fast, accurate passing to guys on the move. When the puck carrier is about to get held up, he dishes it off quickly to someone else – who, in turn, does the same thing if he’s about to get held up. That’s how the game is played, and most coaches should know this after watching New Jersey do it for many years.
So why be intimidated by a team already set up and standing still? If you’re already moving, a team standing still are like pylons to skate around. So why not go for it?
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
So why be intimidated by a team already set up and standing still? If you’re already moving, a team standing still are like pylons to skate around. So why not go for it?
Nobody on either side was moving. That was the problem haha.
But really most of the traps I have seen had a a guy pressuring the puck to force him into the actual trap.
It just usually isn’t an option to sit there. Who knows.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
as a defender
except in specific cases where you’re behind and need to gain possession quickly, you usually let the attacker make the first move so as to avoid getting out of position
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
All the Lightning did was apply this simple, defensive rule that all defenders should know, as a team.
The Flyers are just being silly.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
So many false statements in your comment
Exactly what would you call dropping into a defensive shell where you do nothing but sit back? Is that not the definition of turtling?
No, that would be using strategy to try and defeat your opponent, which is the whole goal of the game. Refusing to play the puck, which is what the Flyers did, is akin to a child holding his breath to get what he wants. What are the Lightning supposed to do? ‘’Oh, the Flyers don’t want us to play that way, let’s change strategies’’? That makes about as much sense as saying ‘’Oh, it hurts the other team when we score on them, let’s not score’’.
Boring 1-0 games are one of the several reasons NHL fandom eroded and a lockout happened.
Oh, you mean that era where holding and hooking were not too severe and it led to wide-open offensive flurries? I don’t remember too many 1-0 games before the lockout, which was caused by a standoff in CBA negotiations, and not by, you know, the trap.
Tampa Plays the trap just about every game, Philly doesn’t sit in the offensive zone every game. So….
So the Flyers are the problem, because no one else seems too bothered by the Lightning playing a brilliant strategy.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
No, that would be using strategy to try and defeat your opponent, which is the whole goal of the game. Refusing to play the puck, which is what the Flyers did, is akin to a child holding his breath to get what he wants. What are the Lightning supposed to do? ‘’Oh, the Flyers don’t want us to play that way, let’s change strategies’’? That makes about as much sense as saying ‘’Oh, it hurts the other team when we score on them, let’s not score’’.
So the Flyers sitting back to try and force Tampa out of their turtling strategy, you know when turtles go into a shell where they do nothing as a DEFENSIVE MEASURE is now turtling rather than “using strategy to try and defeat your opponent” by getting him to play in a way that eliminates his strength?
Really?
Sitting back and refusing to pressure the puck is no less childish when it became obvious what was happening than what the Flyers did.
Oh, you mean that era where holding and hooking were not too severe and it led to wide-open offensive flurries? I don’t remember too many 1-0 games before the lockout, which was caused by a standoff in CBA negotiations, and not by, you know, the trap.
You just made it very apparent that you did not watch pre-lockout hockey from about 2000 on. At all, not even a little bit. There were several reasons, but the product on the ice was one of them. It was terrible. Hooking and holding were absolutely more severe, hell it was referred to every know and then as the clutch and grab era and has been a black stain on the sport that still hasn’t gotten its reputation back.
So the Flyers are the problem, because no one else seems too bothered by the Lightning playing a brilliant strategy.
It’s obvious you’re a huge homer, and you have no idea what you’re talking about. But even this is over the top.
First of all, not pressuring the puck is not a brilliant strategy. You won the game when you stopped doing it. 2nd, it’s that strategy that caused the Flyers to essentially exposed the 4-1 you were running for what it was…. Standing there and doing nothing.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Homer?
That would imply that I’m a Lightning fan. I’m a Wild fan.
When I said hooking and grabbing were less severe, I was talking about the refs being less severe in calling them. I know it was the clutch and grab era and I know it was ugly, but if you look at the stats, you’ll see that there isn’t much of a difference between team goals per game then and now, except maybe in the year following the lockout.
Also, the lockout had nothing to do with the on-ice play. It was a labor dispute. Sure they made changes to the game to try and jazz it up, but it’s not one of the reasons for the lockout.
The Lightning, while you see it as doing nothing, I see it as waiting for the Flyers to move, since you know, they have the puck. All good defensemen know that you must wait for a sign of weakness from the attacker to make your move, or else he’s just going to dance around you. This is a way of using that strategy as a team. I see nothing exciting about a game in which your team scores 5-6 goals but also allows 5-6 goals. So the Lightning using their strategy the way it was intended is not being childish. The only reason it looked like standing there and doing nothing is because the Flyers were the ones doing nothing. You know, the Flyers? The ones WITH THE PUCK.
I could not care less what anyone thinks of the trap, the only ones who find it boring are those who lose to it.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
I could not care less what anyone thinks of the trap, the only ones who find it boring are those who lose to it.
It got the Flyers to the SCF in 2010 and to be honest probably kept us from getting swept by a vastly inferior Chicago team. It is boring and it is bad hockey.
you’ll see that there isn’t much of a difference between team goals per game then and now, except maybe in the year following the lockout.
There is almost a half goal more per game now than at the end of the lockout. And has been every year. Shots is probably a better indicator of this though, as goal tending has been improving for the most part since Roy.
he only reason it looked like standing there and doing nothing is because the Flyers were the ones doing nothing. You know, the Flyers? The ones WITH THE PUCK.
So the Flyers have some sort of moral obligation to skate into the teeth of a trap? Got it.
I see nothing exciting about a game in which your team scores 5-6 goals but also allows 5-6 goals.
But you find watching a 1-0 game which teams spend 3 periods dumping and chasing rewarding? I agree that games of pond hockey get absurd, but let’s not pretend like that happens when you don’t trap. That only happens when nobody plays any defense period.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
If you look at the Lightning’s scores this season, you’ll find all of two games where the score for both teams was 2 goals and under – the Flyers game last night, and the game versus Winnipeg on 29 October. That’s it. In the other 13 games that the Lightning have played this season, at least one team has scored three or more goals. So…if that’s boring, I’d hate to see your definition of “exciting”.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure how many times I have to say this.
I don’t have any issue with the Lightning. I have an issue with a trap that makes no effort to in an way even begin to influence the attacking team to do anything. Regardless of who runs it.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
But, you’re on a Lightning blog, talking about a game the Lightning played in, and being critical – perhaps rightly so – of the Lightning and how they played. You may not have anything against the team specifically, but you’re going to get a Lightning bias to all of the answers. So you might as well be against the Lightning, in this instance. :o)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
BINGO!
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Understandable. And it would be no different if you went to our blog, you’d probably get treated worse than I have here.
But really, I just don’t have any issue with the Lighting here because what they did was within the rules. I just don’t think the rules are working if this continues to be a problem.
I have a feeling it won’t be a big issue like Neilson putting an extra man on the ice every 10 seconds when he was up 1 with like a minute left killing a 5 on 3. It’ll solve itself, or somebody will solve it and in 5 years this’ll be a foggy memory.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
We try to be respectful to everybody – that’s sort of our motto – which is why you haven’t been attacked here. We’re all for intelligent discussion, so long as there are no put downs or name calling, it’s all good. And you’re always welcome back, so long as you keep it respectful, as you have here. :o)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
and I do think a lot of the negative treatment you're getting is leftover vitriol
that should be directed at the VS team last night. Philly was well within their rights, but all this holding them up as paragons of hockey virtue in the face of the evil 1-3-1 was difficult to stomach.
I don’t have opposition to rules that speed up the game or open up the neutral zone, but I really hope there isn’t any move towards a sort of “illegal defense” rule. The way to get around the Devils trap was by opening the ice vertically with the removal of the two-line pass rule. If there’s nothing like that that’s going to be available, a discretionary delay of game rule for a team sitting back in their own zone might be the best course. But any sort of “you’re not allowed to have three skaters in the neutral zone at once while on defense” or something like that would just make things ridiculous, and I hope to avoid ridiculous.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
that should be directed at the VS team last night. Philly was well within their rights, but all this holding them up as paragons of hockey virtue in the face of the evil 1-3-1 was difficult to stomach.
Agreed. Listening to them talk about Zac Rnaldo(who takes selfsh penalties at the Avery rate) made me physically ill.
And on the last part I do agree that the illegal defense rule would make it even more difficult for people getting into the game to figure out what is going on when they should be trying to pick up things like icing, offsides and the general common penalties.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
But you find watching a 1-0 game which teams spend 3 periods dumping and chasing rewarding?
Hell yes. It means my team played a flawless defense and the goaltending was perfect. I sure as hell wouldn’t like seeing my team lose 9-8.
It got the Flyers to the SCF in 2010 and to be honest probably kept us from getting swept by a vastly inferior Chicago team. It is boring and it is bad hockey
So it would’ve been better to not even get to the SCF?
So the Flyers have some sort of moral obligation to skate into the teeth of a trap? Got it.
No, a good team would find a way around it, just like a rabbit would find a way around a hunter’s trap, instead of standing in front of it, waiting for the hunter to remove it.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
Gross
We beat you. Deal with it.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
What is is this kindergarten?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
You tell me?
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
You’re contributing a lot here bud.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Sure am. : ) ….Now can I just answer your questions 3… so I can pass over the bridge?
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
What is the velocity the puck was moving on our first attempt to beat the trap last night? :)
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
0
That’s why they actually blew the whistle. Pronger’s diaper got all wet.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
what do you mean "first attempt"? I don't remember any attempts
:-p
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Rope a dope baby.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Want to kill the “trap”? PLAY against it and beat it. The Boston Bruins did it last year and the Penguins also did it to some extent. Boucher had to change the 1-3-1 after Game 3 on the Conference Finals.
And the 1-3-1 is not the only system Tampa plays. It’s one of a variety of strategies Bouhcer puts on the ice and it’s not even the most used one.
Things are being put out of perspective by people that don’t know Boucher’s work and how Tampa plays on a regular basis.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Want to kill the "trap"? PLAY against it and beat it.
That won’t kill the trap. Teams that trap often do it because they can’t out skate the other team. Not always as I sincerely doubt Stamkos and St. Louis are going to get outskated very often, but there will still be teams who are trying to slow the game down because they aren’t talented.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
And yet, TB gets excoriated in this debate.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Which isn’t fair. I agree.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Aren't the Flyers supposed to be one of the tougher teams in the league?
Pronger said, “Way to showcase the product” in reference to the passive 1-3-1.
I say, “Way to be a man about things and do something worthwhile about the 1-3-1.” The Flyers didn’t “solve” the 1-3-1. To solve it, you have to be successful against it. They weren’t successful. They didn’t play the game in front of them and lost. Way to show your mental and physical toughness by adopting a technique that gave you no advantage in winning the game. You say a passive 1-3-1 isn’t hockey? Sitting in you own zone with the puck isn’t hockey. Can’t get past Marty St. Louis, being the hulking forechecker the League knows and loves, eh? You want forecheckers? Dump it into our zone and BE the forecheckers. Plus, who wouldn’t play want to play a system that generates turnovers in the neutral zone, leading to transition chances? Transition is what the League wants, isn’t it? Watching the Lightning, they seem to generate a lot of transition for both teams, if the other teams bring the puck into the neutral zone.
The argument that the Lightning should play into anyone’s definition of hockey (other than Boucher’s) is absurd, so until you are at the helm of the 2004 Stanley Cup Champions or (God forbid) NHL Commissioner, Mr. Pronger, play the game the way you are supposedly known for: Hard-nosed, physical, game-changing and as a winner.
Can’t get past Marty St. Louis, being the hulking forechecker the League knows and loves, eh? You want forecheckers? Dump it into our zone and BE the forecheckers
Been there done that, watched two teams dump the puck for 60 minutes, it is boring and there is no reason to go back to it. It was awful.
Way to show your mental and physical toughness by adopting a technique that gave you no advantage in winning the game
You’re right, we didn’t lose until you stopped trapping.
Plus, who wouldn’t play want to play a system that generates turnovers in the neutral zone, leading to transition chances?
Very, very few people enjoy playing trap hockey.
The argument that the (Flyers) should play into anyone’s definition of hockey (other than Laviolette’s ) is absurd, so until you are at the helm of the 1975-76 Stanley Cup Champions or (God forbid) NHL Commissioner, Mr. St. Louis, play the game the way you are supposedly known for: Hard-nosed, physical, game-changing and as a winner.
And we’ve come full circle as to why this isn’t an issue either team can or should solve. The NHL needs to do something.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Why? It was one game of boring. Who cares? That’s not typical of either the Lightning nor the Flyers – nor of their games against each other. So why does anything need to be done about it?
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a fair point. And I guess I’d offer the qualification that the NHL needs to do something if this does become a problem and does become common.
If it doesn’t then I agree, the NHL doesn’t need to do anything and a knee jerk reaction would probably be a bad thing given this league’s track record.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
The only reason that this game is a big deal to anybody outside of the Flyers fans and the Lightning fans is because it was on national TV and somethig unusual happened. That’s it. If it’d just been on local networks, it would’ve been regarded as an oddly comical curiosity and nothing else. But because it was on national TV, and because the talking heads made more of it than what there was, it’s now this raging controversy – manufactured, of course.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d.
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
And to be honest I’m more p.o.‘d about McGuire and Milbury’s shenanigans than anything the Flyers or their fans have done.
Well except for Bryz holding, slashing, and tripping people. He wasn’t even subtle about it!
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
agreed on all counts
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
And even once things settled down and got back to a some what normal pace.. Pierre just couldn’t leave it alone. All night.. blah blah blah.
Not even really “trap” hockey per say. The mid 90’s Devils.. now that was trap hockey. Didn’t hear Scotty Bowman & the Red Wings complaing then. And they won a damn Stanley Cup against them with it.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is true to a degree, but I do think there is a sliver of truth to the notion that this has been an issue given that Washington had a similar issue with the trap.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
You’re also talking about a team that keeps falling out of playoffs far too early – that wasn’t all the Lightning’s fault.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Washington
The reason they lost in the playoffs, especially the year they lost against Montreal, was because of a lack of any defensive play. It was akin to someone playing a fighting video game and he just mashed the buttons, hoping he’d win, without any strategy whatsoever. That player would lose to any experienced player in the new era, but the button mashing worked in 2D games, or the old era or hockey.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
Haha, I know we put them out in OT once. It was awesome.
And we did this, which was also funny.
But I’m not necessarily referring to the fact that they lost. More so the fact that it was the exact same trap that caused lulls in the action.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Pittsburgh & Boston both went seven games, so obviously they didn’t have the same issues as the Caps did.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it was so much a Caps issue, rather a somebody has kinda pulled a similar strategy with the trap before issue.
Washington melts down, Pitt and Bos both have recent Cups.
We are way to narrowly focused to say this is a problem for the league yet, and chances are it won’t be.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
They had an issue because they didn’t find a way to play it. Other teams have (some more than others) and they don’t have an issue. Strange, no?
Following the Lightning from Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil.
Let's. Go. BOLTS!
by Rafael Amarante on Nov 10, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Strange for Washington to not figure something out in the playoffs? Nahhhhhh
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
What
are you or who ever, trying to say?? We beat you. Man up.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously dude?
Where did I ever take credit away from this victory?
It hasn’t happened.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
He’s a Wings fan. ;o)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
We beat you
Looks like both to me?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Whats that have to do with anything???
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. Don’t worry, we still love you, Joe. ;o)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ok???
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
It’s all good. :oD
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Didn’t say it wasn’t. But I’m damn proud to be a Wings fan, just like I am the Bolts. Blog or not. Will defend it till the end. Hard to tell exact context, when typing. But never see anyone say at WIIM “oh, he’s a Bolts fan” Especially with a troll present.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Especially with a troll present
Seriously?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
Yes.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Hence the “answer these questions 3, so I can pass the bridge” remark earlier. I’m all for good debate.. what makes the world go round. But you won’t catch me on any Philly SBN sites.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
maybe I'm just used to college sports
but I spent some time on the Georgia SBN site before the UT/UGA game and the Bama site before the UT/UA game. I spent some time on SCoC last May, but I got the feeling that there were mixed reactions to having an opposing fan involved in discussions. Is this less okay in the pro sports culture?
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Sure. Like anything, think it depends on the situation. But if it’s an uphill battle to nowhere. What’s the point?
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe this situation falls into ''trollism''
Unless your definition of a troll is ‘’rival debater’’
Isn’t a troll someone who deliberately disagrees with someone just to piss them off?
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
that's your definition of a troll? you're obvious a moron
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This :) hahaha
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
Yes, true. I’m sure as hell no expert on trollism or blogs for that matter. But just seems kind of pointless. Like I said.. Good, reasonable debate is one thing. A uphill battle to nowhere is just wasting everyones time. Like politics.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Been there done that, watched two teams dump the puck for 60 minutes, it is boring and there is no reason to go back to it. It was awful.
The point of the St. Louis comment was the audacity to sit back like St. Louis is the world’s gift to separating puck from player (with his body or the stick). And that is what Pronger wants, apparently. He wants a forecheck (as do most people), otherwise he wouldn’t complain about “being forced” into stalling.
You’re right, we didn’t lose until you stopped trapping
Fair enough. Boucher doesn’t coach for the 1-3-1 to be played all game. It is mixed in with other strategies.
Very, very few people enjoy playing trap hockey.
But no one enjoys losing, and the Lightning did make it the furthest into the playoffs since winning the Cup in ’04 playing the way they do.
The argument that the (Flyers) should play into anyone’s definition of hockey (other than Laviolette’s ) is absurd, so until you are at the helm of the 1975-76 Stanley Cup Champions or (God forbid) NHL Commissioner, Mr. St. Louis, play the game the way you are supposedly known for: Hard-nosed, physical, game-changing and as a winner
I haven’t seen St. Louis criticizing the Flyers for stalling, but then again I haven’t looked for it, to be honest.
That’s a fair point. And I guess I’d offer the qualification that the NHL needs to do something if this does become a problem and does become common.
If it doesn’t then I agree, the NHL doesn’t need to do anything and a knee jerk reaction would probably be a bad thing given this league’s track record.
This. But I must say if the NHL does do something (again, if a problem arises on a regular basis from this), I would disagree with ruling out the 1-3-1 or traps. When it is used against the Lightning, I blame my team for not breaking through it, not the other team for playing it.
67.3 Minor Penalty – Goalkeeper – A goalkeeper who holds the puck with his hands for longer than three seconds shall be given a minor penalty unless he is actually being checked by an opponent. The object of this entire rule is to keep the puck in play continuously and any action taken by the goalkeeper which causes an unnecessary stoppage must be penalized without warning.
A goalkeeper shall be assessed a minor penalty when he deliberately holds the puck in any manner which, in the opinion of the Referee, causes an unnecessary stoppage of play.
Why not just extend this to players, again, if a change is made in the future?
by Shenaniganos on Nov 10, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
The issue I have with the last part is that IMO you’d be rewarding teams that sit back and in effect really would be bringing the game back to the early aughts.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
The issue I have with the last part is that IMO you’d be rewarding teams that sit back and in effect really would be bringing the game back to the early aughts
“IMO” is the key to everything here. You hate that the Lightning didn’t force the issue on the play and I hate that the Flyers didn’t force the issue on the play. Either way, it sucked for both of us.
by Shenaniganos on Nov 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I haven’t seen St. Louis criticizing the Flyers for stalling, but then again I haven’t looked for it, to be honest.
There’s a reason everybody gives Marty awards for sportsmanship and people call Pronger Captain Elbows… I love Prongs but he’s a dick to people especially the media after the game.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 10, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
least he's not a Duck
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
He used to be, and…..and I’ll stop there.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
but that he's not any more is a de facto raising of his station in life
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still PISSED!!
To save myself the time.. just going to re-post my comment from WingingItInMotown on the same topic. Pretty much what I would have said here anyways.
After last night’s game… The Flyers have officialy reclaimed their spot as my most HATED team! Usually alternates frequently between them and the Penguins.
Last night’s display against Guy Boucher and the 1-3-1 was just…well…typical Philly baby BS, to say the least. Then to top it off, it had to be on Versus. Oh god, you thought they were bad with the Wings? Last night was a whole new level and I will be writing them AGAIN, very soon, about this subject.
I love Doc (who wasn’t part of last night’s crap thankfully) Give or take on Milbury and the rest of ‘em are mostly crap. (aside from the female broadcasters they had, who I think left since) Pierre, of course, was the absolute worst last night though… once things settled down a bit, he just would not leave it alone. The friggin’ audacity of that little pathetic human.
Funny thing is… most of last year and especially all through the play offs… Pierre and company couldn’t praise Coach Boucher and his brilliant system enough. Now we’re supposed to be the enemy?? When the hell did that happen?? The Tampa Bay Lightning… the bad guys.. over the Philadelphia Flyers? Wtf
I apologize for such a long rant…but this really pissed me off. The current lead scoring team in the league, is going to sit back, hold the puck and cry, over a lil’ smart hockey??
Bottom line is this… Whether you agree with Coach Boucher’s system or not… I’ve always been a Bolts fan from day 1 and have stuck with them through thick and thin.. just like with the Red Wings. But when they announced Steve Yzerman as the new GM, along with that, for me, came a whole new sense of trust, confidence, pride and faith..(for lack of better words) So.. if it’s good enough for Steve Yzerman… it’s defintely good enough for me.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 2:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Pierre and company couldn’t praise Coach Boucher and his brilliant system enough. Now we’re supposed to be the enemy??
This.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
by JSLandry on Nov 10, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Rec’d.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I wrote a rant...
….and an open thread broke out!
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
Passion for a sport like hockey, it can happen.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a dirty rumor. Ask Gary Bettman! ;-)
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and boredom. Can’t forget that.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
you know, I'm giving a presentation in about an hour
and have no idea what I’m going to write in my paper due tomorrow. but, you know, hockey
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Haha. Yes, I know.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Oddly enough
The whole open thread debate… very much resembled last night’s game. haha.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
HOLY CONNOLLY!
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Who ever said the Flyers could not handle the 1-3-1? And better yet why would anyone believe that they couldn’t. This was more a case of boredom and disinterest in mindlessly beating one’s head against the wall against a team that stands motionless at center ice trying to capitalize on odd man transition. Not that this isn’t a slick idea, but to lay blame of stagnant play on your opponent while employing this style is a bit short sighted. The Lightning are entitled to play this style all they want, but let’s not believe it’s honorable. If I remember correctly when the Devils started this mess and Red Wings tweaked it, both teams pressured the puck and controlled how it came out of the defensive zone. Neither team stood at center ice and set up an immovable road block. Those teams trapped by out hustling and pressuring the puck in waves. That is the difference between those teams and the Lightning.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Nov 10, 2011 4:00 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Who said hockey is honorable? If it were, they wouldn’t be saying things like “upper body” and “lower body” injury. And there wouldn’t be a problem with head shots, either. There is a severe lack of honor in hockey, as a matter of fact.
And if you’re basing “honor” on attacking when there’s no reason to, and when most NHL teams wouldn’t if given the choice, then maybe you ought to rethink what honor means to you.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Chicken or the egg???
So if thee is no honor I ask why do the Flyers have to mindlessly skate straight into a motionless trap? Why is it incumbent on the Flyers to play into the hands of the Lightning? It is a stalemate. But the only difference is the lightning are the team failing to keep the play moving by not forechecking in the offensive zone.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Nov 10, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You’re contradicting yourself. A stalemate means that both teams are at an impasse. Which also means that both teams have options to do other things. You can’t lay the blame wholly at the feet of the Lightning; they were doing what they often do. The Flyers, however, chose to do something other than what they normally do.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
But what came first the Lightning standing around in the neutral zone delaying the game by not forechecking or the Flyers deciding to make a point of how boring it is to keep skating straight into a wall? And a stalemate is a deadlock where there is a lack of options. I think it was a mind game that Lavy decided to throw out there in the first of 4 meetings this season to see how the Bolts would respond. It’s not like other teams haven’t tried this against the Bolts because they seem to play this way constantly, the Flyers just stuck to it ad nauseam to make a point that they weren’t going to play into the Bolts system. I’m sure the next game will be wholly different, and I am looking forward to it more then I would normally look forward to a Bolts-Flyers game.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
But they don’t play like that constantly. Which, if you watched them regularly, you’d know. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve said here that the overall team defense totally sucks. How many blowouts they get, the large number of shorthanded goals they allow, then absurdly large number of breakaways they allow. This was one game.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
I just have to give my $0.02 as a dispassionate fan
As a Vancouver fan I’ve been subjected to many smotheringly boring snooze-fests because of the trap. The trap sucks. It’s boring and hard to watch. But, it wins games and in a sport the business is winning so I suppose it has some validity. In that same vein though, stopping a fast exciting and talented player from scoring by grabbing hold of him and hanging on used to win games and that’s not cool anymore.
Refusing to play during a game because you don’t like the tactic is petulant and worse than the trap. I’d rather have seen the Flyers bomb the puck down the ice and then clog the neutral zone with 5 players and play the most boring game of hockey ever as a form of protest.
Playing the trap is wrong because it’s boring hockey. Refusing to play against the trap is MORE wrong because it’s not hockey, it’s 10 guys dressed in silly shorts standing on frozen water. That being said if the Flyers don’t act like children are we having what I think is a necessary discussion about eliminating or limiting the trap? Probably not. And that would suck even more.
by mechanixfetch on Nov 10, 2011 4:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure this dates back to the stone ages. If there is some type of struggle or war, there is an offense and a defense. If the defense has no offense to defend, then they have no need to take offense. Philly, NHL and haters… We are missing our top 2 defensemen, don’t be so afraid…
[IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/elimstuff/elimsigsimple-1.jpg[/IMG]
Don’t shroud this tactic with personnel issues. The lightning employ this stagnant style even when they have all their players healthy.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Nov 10, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
How often have you watching Tampa play? You do realize that they don’t use the infamous 1-3-1 all the time, right? Nor all game long?
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
So you are saying that at some point in about every game they don’t employ this style? I know that they do mix other scheme’s in but to say they rarely employ this style is not being honest.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I’d guess that they play the 1-3-1 about half the time in any given game. More or less. It’s not as much as people think – usually it happens when they get a lead.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Then why were they doing it at 0-0 and down a goal? Listen there was plenty of gamesmanship going on last night between both teams. And yes I am totally Flyers biased but there is not a lot of integrity in standing motionless at center ice across the red line. Especially when the Lightning are as talented as any other team in the league, maybe even more talented then the majority of the teams in this league. The Flyers should not be blamed for lacking a game plan or lacking the stones to skate straight at a wall.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Then the Lightning should not be blamed for sticking with their game plan, either.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
chicken or the egg!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Nov 10, 2011 5:59 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Or, you know, both ideas are actually valid and there is no right or wrong.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
running the 1-3-1 when down a goal? I don't remember that part
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
but what I mainly don't understand
is how you’re calling us out for lacking honor by standing motionless at the red line, but you have no problem with yourselves standing motionless in your own zone
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
What started first…the trap or the stalling???
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I guess that's the only defense you could give
but it doesn’t make it relevant.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 11, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
But it is very relevant on this post. The Bolts fans and anti flyers fans are saying the flyers were chickenshit, crybabies, scared, stupid, etc. for not skating directly into a mindless gimmicky trap. But the Flyers fans are looking at it like why do the Flyers have to be the ones making the first move. The lightning started the stalling by standing around in the neutral zone doing nothing to pursue the puck or play aggressive defense. What came first the trap or the stalling??
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
yet
the trap gets run all over the place, and none of the other opponents have claimed it an honorless strategy or reacted by stalling.
The Flyers don’t have to make the first move, but there’s not really room to say that the defense playing passively is honorless and the offense playing passively is acceptable strategy.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 11, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well this whole concept was touched on last year by at least the Caps. And it is really a stalemate isn’t it!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
You going to answer her questions, or simply try to lead her in another direction because your answer is “I don’t watch the Lightning ever”?
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Nov 10, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I watched them in the playoffs last year and this system was discussed ad nauseam. So to say they don’t play this style very often or because they have 2 hurt defensemen is wrong. And no I don’t make a habit of watching the Bolts but what does that have to do with the reality of the discussion. Do you watch the Flyers? And know that they aren’t able to handle the 1-3-1?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
So I guess it’s fair to say that we’d know more about the Lightning than you, as you would know more about the Flyers than we would – right? And playoffs are far different from regular season. Just ask the Caps. And the Sharks.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I guess what I was saying is that this is not a new or random strategy the lightning use as it was talked about last year during the playoffs. If you are a fan of the game it is pretty well accepted that the Lightning employ a 1-3-1 pretty often.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Yes
And last year, especially through the playoffs, it was mainly NBC and Versus.. plus plenty of other people around the league who couldn’t praise Boucher and his brilliant system enough. Don’t think i heard the word “trap” even once. So.. if we are in fact playing trap hockey for even a second a game… then what the hell was that the Flyers were doing?? Being typical Flyer cry babies. No wonder Pronger is your captain, how fitting.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
You never heard the words trap when describing the 1-3-1? Okay, sure, whatever
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Boucher himself doesn’t call it a trap, and doesn’t consider it a trap.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Then he is sugar coating it because trap is such a dirty word. It’s a trap don’t be fooled or dazzled with bullshit.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Or, you know, it’s not really a trap.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
A major problem with this post is you are taking Mike Milbury seriously. Why are you taking Mike Milbury seriously?
No person in a state of rational thought takes Mike Milbury seriously.
Secondly, Travis Hughes of Broad Street Hockey put up a retort to this over at BSH. I suggest you go over and read it and get a nice discussion going. Actually I recommend it because look, between me and you, I’m a Penn State football fan and I am desperate for something else to talk/discuss/argue about. Something. Anything. Please. I’m begging you.
You can do this or you can “turtle” like the Flyers. The choice is yours.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I think
Dale Tallon might take him seriously. If those two were GMs at the same time the trade deadline would be CRRRAAAAAAZY
by mechanixfetch on Nov 10, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
So we have to come over there now? Can’t you get a thread going without us? Must we start the discussion?
Hey, this is beginning to sound like a game I was hearing about last night…. ;o)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, this is beginning to sound like a game I was hearing about last night…. ;o)
Yes! :-)
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Hey, I tried.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Hah. So glad the choice is mine.
Funny thing outta all this. You could tell Jagr was probably not happy with the Flyers stalling. Skating circles around center ice, just waiting for the pass. Why? Because he has true skill and has played against every system you could think of. He didn’t seem scared at all and was ready to at least TRY and break through the system.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Wonder how many times Ed, blockquoted us over there? Haha. Sure seems to be quite fond of that feature.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
I tried to come over and comment, but 24 hour waiting period
I think I agree with pretty much everything Travis writes, with the main difference here being that he undersells how frustrating the VS commentary was to Lightning fans who had to listen to that crap live.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Damn. That’s a helluvah lot of comments. Not in a mood to read them now. As I said earlier today, I wrote a post for my friend’s blog regarding this issue: Here you go.
I'm in love with the Lightning, the Flyers are my fling and I have a crush on the Flyers fans. LA Kings by default.
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego. Go visit my website. I will keep you updated on every Simon injury.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Well... Some might remember.
RIP Karel, Jan & Josef.
The Flyers blog has already posted a retort to this one, attempting to disseminate the points listed in the rant. It’s pretty much the same old crap we’ve heard.
Interestingly, they state that the only way to beat the trap is to stop playing entirely. It’s pretty funny, really.
I’m afraid Bobby Holik does not agree.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 10, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Why do Flyers fans keep coming over here?
Like we care about their “thoughts”? I wonder how many Bolts fans actually took the time to go over to BSB and engage their cry fest. Hopefully, none.
We’re all right and we’re all wrong. End of story. See you next game… hope the Flyers decide to play this time.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, now. All people are welcome, and they’re fairly respectable – no name calling or rude put downs. They aren’t bad people, just fans of another team who are looking for intelligent discusion.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Vinny says it pretty well
"It’s a new-schooled system, but it really makes sense," Lightning captain Vincent Lecavalier said. "I’ve been in the league for 12 years, and (the) trap slows down teams, but this is really high tempo. I love it, I think it’s really going to fit our team." -VL4
The whole article this is from is a pretty good read. Also includes a link from Jaspers’ Rink that explains things a bit more. Seems like they have an idea of how to beat it, without playing turtle. Who woulda thought?
Wish Versus still had their site up… so could find more articles “praising” the system. Boucher bases everything on speed.. much more than anything else.
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)
by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Nov 10, 2011 8:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
My favorite national article on all this
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 10, 2011 11:03 PM EST reply actions
______ is...
The purpose of defense is to keep the other team from advancing the puck. The purpose of offense is to advance the puck. As far as I can tell, during the freak out, the Philly offense didn’t advance the puck up ice. That’s a win for the defense.
Now people argue that Tampa should force forecheck play so that Philly can run their designed play which depends on passing the puck past the direction of the 1st forechecker; which to me, is arguing that defense should have aided in the Philly offense’s advancing of the puck, which makes no sense because again, the purpose of defense is to HALT the other teams advancement of the puck, not assist in it. IT’S REALLY THAT SIMPLE. If our defense realizes that a current trend in offense is to always send the play in the direction where there’s moving pressure, why not just stand still and let’em bring the puck to you? Many teams transition plays depend on waiting for the opposing team to move out of their passing lanes…why on God’s earth would any hockey fan argue for the removal of a defense’s right to clog passing lanes by any means possible and say it’s good for hockey?
In the end, the Philadelphia Flyers showed they are afraid of the 1-3-1 neutral zone system and a message was sent to the rest of the league. On 3 occasions the Flyer’s had the puck, with ZERO pressure on the puck carrier, and like a deer in the headlights, couldn’t even muster to move; and to make things worse, at the end of the game their coach threw a tantrum. That’s the reality of what happened.
And to those who are now upset with the system that in it’s first year in this league carried a non-playoff team to game 7 in the ECF, I’m not offended, you can hate while we dominate, I’m okay with that.
"System Trumps Chumps" - Tampa t
by tankerkevo on Nov 11, 2011 11:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The issue isn’t with effectiveness, it’s about aesthetics. The NHL didn’t like the aesthetics and appeal that the trap brought (didn’t bring?) and I’m sure they think more open hockey = more fans, even though winning is what really brings fans in.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 11, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Essentially, all of the bad press is coming from people outside of Tampa Bay, which is absolutely fine. If they claim that it hurts hockey and leads to less fans, let them wallow in their ignorance. We as Lightning fans know enough to look around the stands and see the drastic difference in attendance that has occurred since Vinik, Yzerman, and Boucher came to town.
The real problem is with the media spin. Those festering creeps on Versus have no excuse for what they’ve done. As supposed hockey experts, they had the perfect chance to lambast a team that refused to be competitive and even try to move the puck forward. Instead, incessant whining about a lack of forecheck and a trap. Jesus christ…
by TampaCub on Nov 11, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So standing across the red line, clogging the rink, waiting for turnovers is competitive? I’ve done lost my my mind.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s fair to criticize one without criticizing the other. The best defense is holding onto the puck, and Philly held onto the puck.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 11, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
stalling is underdog strategy
so it’s more fair to blame the favorite. The reason most Tampa fans are doing a o.O is because our defense is really, really bad and was missing two top players. Philly should’ve been able to play their game and cruise.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 11, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
But why risk an odd man rush going the other way via turnover? Surely if Philly is the favorite they can play a no-risk game and win. It’s patience, waiting for an opening.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 11, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
You know, of course, the Caps having done this at least once this season, that in order to get the Lightning out of position, you should actually push them around and use short passes through the neutral zone. I’m not saying that Philly didn’t have the right to do what they did; their tactic was just as legal as anything the Lightning did. I am saying they didn’t really play to their strengths and exploit our weaknesses very well by choosing this tactic.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
if you're the better team
playing what you call a “no risk” strategy decreases your chances of winning in regulation (and probably increases your chances of losing in regulation) because it decreases the number of chances and thus increases variance. That’s why it’s underdog strategy
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 11, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Not necessarily. There’s also the matter of where the spread is centered. If you increase variance but move your win% center higher, it could be a plus.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 11, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
well, yeah, it kind of is. It gives a team that uses that strategy a competitive advantage they might not otherwise have. It can, in the right circumstances, keep teams in games or even help them win. You might find it boring, but I don’t think you can argue that it’s not competitive.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
We have very different definitions of competitive.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Flip it around. What would you think if the Flyers set up in their regular defensive scheme, and the Lightning weren’t moving. What would you think? (And don’t even say that the Flyers would forecheck, because that’s not the point.)
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
I would be screaming at the TV, stop sitting back and get the damn puck and beat some people up in the process. The last part was really only because I am a philly fan and fisticuffs have to come into play at some point.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
So you would be completely okay with the Lightning just sitting there in their own end not moving the puck in this fictional situation?
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. I really look at this as more of a protest and challenge then a game style. And if the Flyers were standing there dumfounded as to wether they should pursue or not I would be pissed. And when the bolts did come out of the 1-3-1 they actually created a turn over in the offensive zone that almost ended up in the Flyers net.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Protesting during a regular season game seems sort of self-defeating to me. What if that had backfired? Seems too risky to bother with, frankly. Now, I could understand preseason, when the games don’t mean anything.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that word means what you think that it means.
com·pet·i·tive adj \kəm-ˈpe-tə-tiv\
1: relating to, characterized by, or based on competition
2: inclined, desiring, or suited to compete < a competitive personality> <salary benefits must be competitive — M. S. Eisenhower>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/competitive
As opposed to
ag·gres·sive adj \ə-ˈgre-siv\
1a : tending toward or exhibiting aggression b : marked by combative readiness
2a : marked by obtrusive energy b : marked by driving forceful energy or initiative : enterprising
3: strong or emphatic in effect or intent
4: growing, developing, or spreading rapidly
5: more severe, intensive, or comprehensive than usual especially in dosage or extent
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggressive?show=0&t=1321056196
What you’re saying is that it’s not aggressive. It is most definitely competitive.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
And I repeat, what is inclined, desiring, or suited to compete about sitting back and stacking up at the blue line waiting for mistakes. And yes standing there with the puck stalling is not competing but I look at this like the trap started before the stalling.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
com·pete [kuhm-peet]
verb (used without object), -pet·ed, -pet·ing.
to strive to outdo another for acknowledgment, a prize, supremacy, profit, etc.;
engage in a contest; vie: to compete in a race; to compete in business.
No where in compete or competing does it say sitting on the red line afraid to pursue.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
If this strategy allows teams to compete and to win, then it is competitive.
The 1-3-1 maximizes Tampa Bay’s defensive resources, and thus helps us as we strive to outdo other teams while we are engaged in a contest with them for acknowledgment, prizes, supremacy, etc.
Are you seriously arguing that the 1-3-1 defense makes the Lightning lose, and therefore must be eradicated through a protest game on national television that results in a change in league rules? Surely, if it made us lose, we would stop doing it all on our own.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Interesting take from Yzerman that sort of underscores how bizarre the whole thing was from a competitive standpoint:
“We were worried they were going to come in and run-n-gun and we weren’t going to be able to keep up with our guys that our out and the fact we haven’t played particularly well defensively,” Yzerman said. “We were worried that Jagr and Giroux were going to tear us to shreds, so it was almost a relief for us.”
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
depressing that 13 of the 18 GMs polled blamed Tampa
and still somewhat bizarre to me.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 11, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
It’s because they see it as an unfair advantage, that’s why it’s Tampa’s fault. Show you how much they watch the Lightning, tho. Because anyone who watched the team regularly knows that they’re not that great defensively – just as the JM said.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I had two thoughts on that poll. One is that nearly half the GMs refused to express an opinion, either by not responding or by specifically answering that they didn’t have an opinion. The other is that it was right after the incident and that it could change quite a bit once they get to talking about things.
There are a lot of things that need to be considered with this issue and they’re also supposed to be talking about realignment in this meeting. So I expect more than anything that they’ll decide to not decide, just put it off and either take it up later or drop it altogether. (Both LeBrun and McKenzie have said they don’t expect any rule changes.)
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
If they did have a rule change, they’d mostly likely change the rules to prevent what Philly did, and not what the Lightning usually do.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 11, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
More not the bad guy
felt fairly happy reading this evening’s piece on Puck Daddy.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 12, 2011 1:06 AM EST reply actions
Ryan Lambert. The voice of reason. I think the world just ended.
But, to be fair, he was bashing all of the haters on Twitter while this uproar was going on during the game.
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 12, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
Ryan Lambert. The voice of reason. I think the world just ended.
That’s what I said. :) But he did retweet me, so I guess I have to be okay with him.
and actually at least 2 of the BS columnists have come down on the side of the 1-3-1 and while Bourne didn’t take sides, he did go out of his way to be fair about the situation. There are media folks either saying the 1-3-1 is fine or being evenhanded and not calling Philly the saviors of hockey here. After the dramatics of the last few days it’s nice not to have the destruction of all mankind pinned on you for a little while anyway.
Which reminds me, I glanced over the counter article at Broad Street Hockey, and nearly died laughing at this comment:
Just went through the comments at Raw Charge. Holy Hyperventilocity. They need to get better at being hated by everybody.—by flyersfaninchicago
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
I didn't read through the BSH comments
because I couldn’t reply to any (24 hr waiting period). But the main article I thought was fairly reasonable. I think I just agree with Travis (or at least find his opinion reasonable) on everything.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Nov 12, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
The article was well-done, and most of the comments were reasonable, but like there are here, there were some very angry people posting as well.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Just crawl away and die, Philly
“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” – Charles Darwin
So the Lightning have figured out how to make beer, and have found thru experience that drinking beer, instead of drinking the putrid kool-aid from the local water hole leads to a healthier, longer life.
Keep drinking the kool-aid, Philly.
Hey Bolt fans, wanna beer??
"Coach doesn't like hard-working...Coach likes Relentless." Eric Brewer
@b0lted_d0wn on Twitter ... Bolted Down on Facebook
I lurk, sometimes I even speak...Go Boltz!!
by Bolted_Down on Nov 12, 2011 9:06 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for the Darwin quote!
"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Nov 12, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Someone has come over here
and rec’d a bunch of “the Flyers were right” comments (mostly ones by one specific poster) so that they turned green. Wow! Way to be passive-aggressive, guys. Stand up for what you believe, folks, and put your name to it. We don’t bite around here, or at least not very often and not very hard.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
lol
reminds me of this
Herm Edwards really does have some golden quotes… “You play to win the game! You don’t just play it to play it!”
"I'm a guy who works very hard and if I want something bad enough, I'm going to do anything possible to get it." Steven Stamkos
I run a TBL/NHL blog, Guy Boucher's Scar. Inspired to blog by the great folks at SBN's TBL blog, Raw Charge.
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