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So, about those goalies: Dustin Tokarski edition

Dustin Tokarski with the Norfolk Admirals last season (2010-11 season photo by MTBoltfan)

There's been some talk recently about the Tampa Bay Lightning calling up goalie prospect Dustin Tokarski from the Norfolk Admirals. Wednesday morning, Damian Cristodero of the St. Petersburg Times posed the possibility that General Manager Steve Yzerman might be considering the move.

It may not happen right away (it actually may not happen at all) but it is not a stretch to believe that if Tampa Bay Lightning goaltender Dwayne Roloson continues struggling, GM Steve Yzerman might soon bring goaltender Dustin Tokarski up from AHL Norfolk for a couple-game look-see.

Joe Yerdon, from ProHockeyTalk.com, cited Cristodero's article, but his headline went a bit further than Cristodero's did: "Don't worry, Dustin Tokarski might save Tampa Bay in goal."

Now I'm certain that Cristodero knows a lot more about what Yzerman is thinking than I am. I'm also sure that both Cristodero and Joe Yerdon are very smart fellows, and that they aren't the only ones thinking this. However, as much as I sympathize with fans who want to see some move made to shore up the back end, my first reaction is that the potential promotion of Tokarski is not a good idea. It essentially risks future stability in the slim hopes of gaining in the short-term.

Star-divide

Tokarski is not simply not ready for the NHL. He wasn't ready last season and he hasn't shown he's ready this season. For most of the first part of the Admirals' 2011-12 season, he has been splitting time with fellow goaltending prospect Jaroslav Janus. Up until about three weeks ago, the two had almost identical TOI. Last season (2010-11), Tokarski played 46 games (.901SV% and 2.65 GAA). He has yet to play in a starting role in the AHL for an entire season.

In 16 games this season (937 minutes), Tokarski has made 344 saves on 382 shots. He sits at .901 SV% and 2.43 GAA over those games. He has faced an average of 26.5 shots per 60 minutes of ice time. He's been doing better over the last couple of weeks--something Cristodero pointed out--but the NHL ground is littered with goalies who can string together a few weeks of good play. It says little about their long-term consistency.

Even at his strongest pace of the season, Tik's numbers didn't set the AHL world on fire. Going by the figures Cristodero mentioned (14 games, 2 shutouts, .918 SV% and 1.94 GAA), Tokarski would be in the top-10 AHL goaltenders in GAA and the top-20 in save percentage. But those figures cut off his bad start while including a period of very good play between the middle of October and the middle of November. Yes, Tokarski got hot for a little while. It appears, though, that he's back down to earth.

In the last 4 weeks, he has played 7 games, facing 155 shots and giving up 15 goals in 416 minutes of ice time. That gives him a stat line of .903 SV%/2.16 GAA/ 22.4 SA/60. That's good for 32nd in the AHL in save percentage and 8th in GAA. It's not bad by any means, but it's not the kind of thing that screams "This kid is ready!" (Our old friend, Cedrick Desjardins, is putting up the best numbers in that league at .946 and 1.70, but he's only played in 10 games this season.)

Contrast that to Mathieu Garon's stat line over the last 4 weeks: 10 games, 234 shots, 22 goals against in 506 minutes (.905/2.61/27.8). The Lightning goalie is facing a lot more shots and playing a lot more minutes, but is doing just about as well as Tokarski's doing in Norfolk.

My point here isn't that Tokarski is a bust, but that he's not going to be the answer to the Lightning's goalie needs at this point in time. Calling up Tokarski and putting him in a situation he's not ready for risks doing a whole lot more damage than good.

In an email conversation Wednesday, Chad Schnarr from BoltProspects.com had this to say about Tokarski:

Dustin Tokarski is about a year or more away from being a legitimate NHL option for the Tampa Bay Lightning. This year, his third professional season, he is working on consistency both in terms of on ice performance and his mental approach to each game . . . The AHL is the place for young goaltenders to work these patterns out before being physically and mentally ready for the grind the NHL takes on every part of a player. He is known as a big-game goaltender that plays his best with the most on the line, but being counted on as a savior of sorts for the Lightning right now is too much too soon. Eventually he'll likely be a very solid and reliable No.1 goaltender, but that's a couple years off.

One big factor to keep in mind--and I know you're tired of hearing me say this--is that the team simply isn't keeping shots-against under control. That has to be fixed. Sliding a kid into even a backup role he's not ready for under these circumstances is far from ideal and it creates expectations that would be virtually impossible for Tokarski to meet. Once a goalie disappoints at the NHL level, it can be very difficult to get back on track. Expecting any goaltender to save this season is unrealistic. Expecting a kid with 44 minutes experience in the NHL to do it is close to fantasy.

The real kicker, though, is that Tokarski is expected to be the future in Tampa Bay. The team needs to be able to rely on him for a number of years. That's why teams draft goalies in the first place. In calling up Tokarski, and placing him in a position where the odds against sustainable success are so great, the team would be risking that future. Behind Tokarski is Janus, 22 years old and never a starter before, even at the AHL level. Behind Janus sits Pat Nagle, currently in his first professional season while playing with the Florida Everblades of the ECHL. As little depth as this organization has on defense (something I've seen many fans bemoan), the depth in net is no better.

If Yzerman calls up Tokarski now and he falters, where does that leave the team in 2012-13 and beyond? Does Tokarski get demoted back to Norfolk with a huge public blip on his record? Development can and does get derailed by less. Does this not place the team in the exact same position they are in right now, only without being able to call Tokarski up again? Can the fans trust him again? Can the team? Mortgaging the future on a slim hope for short-term success is poor planning. It's a panic move, and one I hope that Yzerman is able to avoid.

Chad Schnarr finished up with this note on the future for Tokarski, and I think we fans ought to keep it in mind when considering a call up:

In ideal circumstances, Tokarski would finish out the year in Norfolk as their No.1, backstop them on a multi-round playoff run, then position himself to be at least a split timer at the NHL next season. After a half a year in a split tandem, he could possibly be ready to be an NHL no.1 goaltender.

I want to see Tokarski around for a while, in a position where the team can rely on him down the road, and I believe that allowing him time to develop is crucial for the team's future success.

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Good stuff

But I think I saw something about Norfolk having a couple weeks off and that we might call him up to get his feet wet and then send him back down regardless of results. That plan sounds a lot better to me than calling him up with the weight of expectations on his shoulders. What are your thoughts there?

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

What Mike Corcoran threw out was that there’s a week off after this weekend’s games, so it might be a good time for him to come up and get some work with the coaching staff and shooters. I’m all in favor of that. I think that would be enormously beneficial, as long as it stays in practice.

But I don’t foresee a positive result coming out of him getting any starts unless he’s flat out mediocre while the rest of the team is good. A bad game for him and you’ll hear “god this team sucks even down to the minors.” A good game from him and the pressure to keep him here in the hopes that that’s the spark to light the fire will explode. A bad game from the team in front of a mediocre performance from Tokarski and you’ll hear “he never got a chance.”

My preference: Just leave him be and let him develop.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

so basically

call him up but don’t get him game time, because game time will either ruin his confidence or put more pressure on him, depending on performance?

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I say the practice is great. The fishbowl is not.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

An injury call-up is different, IMO. The expectations are more easily managed and in that case it’s not like you have a choice. The guy comes up, he plays a few games and then he goes down again. As long as the fans don’t try to hand him the keys.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically repeated in my comment. John must learn to read comments better.

Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 15, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for the sanity check!

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 1:42 PM EST reply actions  

The one thing I really don't agree with here

Is the absolutes:

“Tokarski getting promoted to Tampa for a “look see” means 1) he’ll play! 2) he’ll suck! 3) he’ll be ruined!"

The Lightning called up Desjardins last season for a look-see around this time. It was only out of circumstance that Ced got into games (as a backup and a starter). Not out of the Lightning giving him a shot tand expecting him to do it all from now on.

Likely, a Tokarski call up will happen around the AHL Christmas break. Tokarski will work with Franz Jean and will not get into game situations (as a backup or a starter) unless something happens to Roloson or Garon.

My point is, it’s not a black-and-white situation. There are a lot of gray areas to acknowledge, that it is possible to have a constructive expereince on a call up, before he gets returned to teh Admirals after new years.

Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 15, 2011 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

I didn’t take Clare’s article meaning Tik was either going to rock, suck, or be ruined just on the basis of his call-up. I think she was specifically warning against bringing Tik up as a replacement netminder.

"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984

by MTBoltFan on Dec 15, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. It’s specifically the “Tokarski-as-savior” scenario I have problems with.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

That, I always have problems with, no matter who the young player is. I could cite another sport and another young player who got screwed because of those expectations (which were further raised by early success).

My reaction stems from the lack of mention of the angle from which Tokarski would be used in TB: He wouldn’t. But people indeed would come to the conclusion he was the savior for the team if he does get called up and gest to teh cusp of playing time.

Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 15, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, I will cite another sport for the sake of getting the Buc fans around here riled up: Shaun King.

Forget the fact he was a rookie QB, that’s bad enough. He was a local football product on top of it. I don’t mean something was bad about him. I had all the hope in the world for him. BUT,/em> Trent Dilfer went down, the Bucs turned to King, the Bucs were successful, and that raised expectations on the kid’s servicable performance.

I liked Shaun King, who I referred to as “Cool Jazz”. He was calm and composed. But he was rushed and he’s out of football now.

Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 15, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not saying he’ll suck if he gets called up. I’m saying that expecting long-term consistency from a guy who’s never been in this situation is a huge gamble and that the rewards are in all probability not worth it. Even if he played lights out for the rest of the season in the Lightning net, what happens next season? Will he be another Steve Mason if he gets pushed too far too fast? That’s a big risk to take on the off chance that the team makes the playoffs. And are you willing to ride this kid into the 2nd or 3rd round?

If he were sitting behind a reliable 1st chair, he could learn something just by being on the bench and in practice. But there isn’t a reliable 1st chair to take the heat off.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Tokarski, if you remember, was called up to play in his first season as a pro. He suited up for two games, and was in one as I think Ellis (?) was pulled. He did fine, but it was also clear that he was up very temporarily due to injury.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Nitttymaki. This was during 2009-2010.

Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Dec 15, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Wonderful voice of reason

John Q. Averagefan doesn’t realize goalies have arguably the longest development time of any NHL player.

Name me an All-Star level NHL goalie, and I’ll show you several years between his selection in the draft and his maturity in the position.

Marc-Andre Fluery? He was drafted in 2003, but didn’t even play in the NHL full-time until two seasons later (he played 21 games the year he was drafted). It wasn’t until 2007 he really came into his own.

Henrik Lundqvist? He was drafted in 2000, but again didn’t play for the Rangers until much later (2005), but was a force upon his arrival in the NHL.

Lesson here is rush a goalie at your risk. Take your time, and a late-round pick can end up golden (Lundqvist was pick #205 in the 2000 draft).

Again, Clare—great, well-thought out article.

"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984

by MTBoltFan on Dec 15, 2011 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

Important note to my comment is this: the two examples I cite here (Fleury and Lundqvist) are exceptional goalies and so came into their own far more quickly than average goalies that have started to shine.

"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984

by MTBoltFan on Dec 15, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And the list of goalies who have had a great first season as a very young goaltender and then washed out is very long.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't the Flyers have one of those just two years ago?

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Want a worst case scenario? Look at Jim Carey. One and a half great seasons, won a Vezina in 1996 and then sunk like a stone. Had to quit the game altogether.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I was 8 years old in 1996, so I aided my memory with Wikipedia, but

there was a Vezina winner with a .906 save percentage?

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/vezina.html

The league started tracking shots and sv% in 1983. They changed the Vezina from the award for best GAA to “outstanding goalie” right about that time (1982 or 1983). Except for Dominik Hasek, the goalies who won in the first 15 years after that all had sv% under .915, four of them under .900.

Lots of sentences about goalies start with, except for Dominik Hasek……

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

huh

learn something new every day

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Goalies take the longest to develop, then defensemen. Most goalies come into their own in their late 20s, most defensemen in their mid-20s. Forwards can make a much bigger impact immediately due to scoring, but don’t because more complete players (aka; working defense into their game) until their mid- to late 20s.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Most excellent...great post.

I’ve really enjoyed the analytical articles recently..thanks CAustin. I was flipping through Tokarski’s stats last night and not as impressed as others on Twitter seemed, but this puts it all in words so much better than I could have.

At least in my mind, there’s no sense rushing the future, especially considering the Lightnings’ window of competitiveness doesn’t close after this season. They’ve got a core that should be around for a number of years, so there’s no real need to make a reactionary move with a prospect now.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 15, 2011 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you. You have no idea how hard it is for me to work with all those numbers. :)

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I can only imagine.

I’m used to baseball where the stats are easy to find and nearly everywhere. Hockey you really have to dig (especially for AHL stats, oy…talk about a pain), and getting into the advanced stuff is daunting.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 15, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball fans are really into stats, I’ve noticed – far more than hockey fans are. Tho, there’s a small segment of hockey fans that are really into stats as well. Been looking for one to write for us, but haven’t found any Lightning fans who are stats heads that are interested in writing about it. So we’ll keep looking.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

well, you've found a Lightning fan stat head

just not hockey stats. I still haven’t learned hockey stats well enough. You should see some of my articles at Rocky Top Talk though

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 15, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

See, and we’re trying to find someone to satisfy people like you who want to know more about hockey stats…but we haven’t found anyone yet. :o\

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I could put you to work, if you’re interested. I mean, football’s over, isn’t it? Semester break. Surely you don’t have anything more important in your life to work on than trying to understand RelCorsi/60.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

bowl season is happening

but my last exam was yesterday, so I do have some non-procrastination-driven free time that’s fairly new

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

non-procrastination free-time is the BEST!

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, CAustin's been doing a great job so far.

That piece on PDO the other day was really fun.

I’m a huge baseball stat nerd, so now that I’ve gotten addicted to hockey this year, I’m doing a lot of catch up to learn all the stats and concepts. I guess at this point, I apparently don’t know how to follow a sport and not be into the stats…it’s weird. Hockey stats is a whole other world since it’s such a different sport, but that makes it all the more fun too.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 15, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, any time you’re up for writing about hockey stats, feel free to post anything about that here. There are plenty of people I can get you in contact with about the more creative statistics as well. And, there’s a peculiarity to hockey stats that you should probably be made aware of. Because of many of the stats being basic, but not necessarily satisfactorily explaining certain aspects of the game, people have tried coming up with their own metrics and composite stats. Some are more popular – and more obscure – than others. +/- is often the center of that sort of thing. ;o)

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks Cassie, I plan on it.

Although I’ll probably write it up for SB TB and then put up a FanShot, if that’s okay with you guys :)

And good to know about the made up stats. I’ve mostly stuck to Hawkerchuk’s work at BehindTheNet so far, but I’ll keep my eye out.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 16, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Whatever works for you, Steve. ;o)

Off the top of my head, Copper and Blue (Oilers blog here on SB Nation) does a lot of hockey stats, and so does James Mirtle when he’s not writing about the Leafs at the Globe & Mail.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

As i understand it, there are two things hockey stats are trying to figure out: the first is puck possession and the second is whether your GM is a complete moron for paying that guy that much money.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha, yeah, that sounds right.

I’m very interested in the idea right now of evaluating defenders…what makes a good one, how you evaluate them, etc. Mostly I want to know exactly what’s going on with the Bolts’ D and what they can do it fix it. Roloson is an easy target, but I’m curious on who else is a weak link.

This article is getting me started. Some very cool stuff there, but I think I’ll have to compare results with previous seasons to develop a broader picture.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 16, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

My next post was going to be about the d-men, but I haven’t really sat down and thought out what to include. Corsi and relative Corsi, QualComp (what the guy in that article is calling QoC), zone starts. Plus/minus is so easy to include because it’s everywhere, although—you know, it’s kinda crappy, and all that. … Well, I’ll have to gather some stuff and then start writing to figure out what I’ve actually got.

Thanks for the link, though. I wonder if I can figure out how to do a chart like that.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve always thought that combining +/- with a relative special teams +/- would figure out the defense issue stats.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

explain this idea to me. Speak slowly. :)

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, +/- is a defensive stat, but it only applies to even-strength situations, right? That doesn’t explain the whole picture defensively, however. You do have to include odd-man situations in order to understand who’s truly a defensive liability and who isn’t. I haven’t quite figured out the details, but there ought to be some way to take the raw +/- from odd-man situations and incorporate that into a comprehensive +/- statistic.

Maybe we can hop on Skype this weekend and discuss this when you have some time? I have no plans. :o)

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

when I did the attackers over the summer

I used a lot of +/- and special teams +/-. I figure that special teams numbers are one of the best ways to sort out who’s playing the best, because it takes away a lot of the guesswork about who’s been playing on a line with who (for instance, Downie’s even strength numbers were so high last year because he played with Stammer and MSL) or facing the opponent’s top players. When you’re on the power play, you’re typically playing with your team’s best and against the other team’s best. I imagine the kill would be similar for defensemen.

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

To my understanding

the problem is sample size. So much less TOI on the man-advantage or disadvantage that the numbers don’t really track well. The stats people have a lot less confidence in trends discovered in 5-on-4 than 5-on-5 because teams spend so much more time in that situation.

Of course, I’m still trying to understand a lot of this and it’s kind of a moving target anyway. As soon as I find an article explaining the basics it’s out of date as someone points out the flaws and develops a new way to deal with them.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That should read “teams spend so much less time in that situation.”

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2011/team_data3.php?sort=25

I just noticed that behindthenet.ca (which used to be the website that is now Arctic Ice Hockey, a Winnepeg Jets blog) have an ATL in their team list and no WPG. Yes, this data is for this season.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

This makes no sense to me. :o\

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

From a database perspective, it makes sense.

If you’re trying to track a team with a single tag, it causes all sorts of problems for sorting and consistency between years when teams change names/cities. Hence a site like Baseball-Reference still referring to the Miami Marlins as the FL Marlins (they also just may not have gotten around to changing it).

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 17, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Being a baseball guy, you may not realize quite how ironic it is for a blog so closely connected to Winnepeg to acknowledge that that franchise has an actual history under the name Atlanta Thrashers.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 17, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha, yeah, I know the history but don't really know the fanbase/reaction.

So I probably whiffed on that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 17, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

that makes sense

but I was also looking at full-season data, so the sample size was a bit larger on that account

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking that it ought to be broken down more like GAA than a true +/-. Weight it somehow in regards to how much time is spent on it. Tho, tracking the individual players stats for it would be a bitch.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What is this Skype you speak of and how does one hop on it? Does it get mad at being hopped on all the time?

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

it's a free, online, instant messaging thing

that also has audio and video chats

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I use it mostly as a phone service – audio only. It’s convenient, and I don’t have to worry about having that bluetooth earpiece in my ear. And I’m usually sitting at my computer about half the time, anyways. :o)

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t even know if I have a microphone on my computer. I have a jack for one, but I don’t think I have an actual microphone.

Oh God. I’m obsolete!

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Rakastan suuria Maalivahdit Skandinaviasta

by CAustin on Dec 16, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

you have a computer without a built-in microphone?

I didn’t even know they made those

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, they’re called “desktops”. :oP

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

oh right

I forgot those were things

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I have one in my webcam – not that I ever use the video camera portion of it.

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel the same way

except that the older I get, the more I dislike baseball. I got to the point last year where somebody mentioned the name of a baseball player who was supposedly among the best in the league, and I not only had to look him up on Wikipedia, but I ended up more interested in the article on the Uruguayan fullback of the same name who played in the 1986 World Cup. I don’t remember who it was, but it was an off topic comment from this blog. Might’ve been John who gave me a hard time about it. Don’t remember.

If I cared more about my UNC side, I'd call myself "Tar Volon," and that'd be awesome.
Bolts, Canes, Preds (now in different conferences!). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity
Rocky Top Talk

by Incipient_Senescence on Dec 16, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Again..great post

I for the most part, concur 100%.

"WINGnut--BOLThead"
Let's GO..Wings, Tigers, Lions, Wolverines (oh my!) & Bolts!!!! (RIP Cory Smoot aka Flattus Maximus of GWAR)

by Let's JOE WINGS-BOLTS on Dec 15, 2011 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

I still love him.

"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."

by Wrap Around Curl on Dec 15, 2011 4:22 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

As well you should! :oD

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I have the faith he’ll pay off. Might take some work. But being an excellent goalie is in his blood.

"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."

by Wrap Around Curl on Dec 15, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I need to get back to Norfolk soon. I live about 3 hours drive away, but this past couple of months have been tough to get down there. I really need to do that – and write more about Norfolk, just generally. Gotta keep doing updates for those WHL fans that I know. ;o)

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 15, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Whatever do you mean? There are fans of “The Dub?” ;-)

"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984

by MTBoltFan on Dec 15, 2011 6:53 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Craziness, I know. ;o)

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." -Herb Brooks

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Dec 16, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course you do. I do, too.

I’d just like to be able to love him for a long time to come.

R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.

by CAustin on Dec 15, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

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