The Atlanta-to-Winnipeg move raises more questions than it answers
In the week since it was announced that the NHL franchise known as the Atlanta Thrashers was to be sold and moved to Winnipeg, discussion about this move has raised some interesting questions about the viability of markets past, present and future, to support the NHL. We're talking about it a lot here at Raw Charge because this move directly impacts the division the Lightning play in, and we realize how narrowly we dodged this particular bullet (thanks again, Mr. Vinik). One two-part question posted in the comments of this article asks:
1) What is their (the NHL's) shared revenue system, if they have one? If there is one, can it be enough to finance a team in a relatively small market?2) What other markets are large enough in terms of media that could handle hockey? Hampton Roads (Norfolk/Virginia Beach)? Cincinnati (or is Columbus too close)? Birmingham? Is hockey popular in Iowa? Is relocation to Connecticut an option or perhaps Providence RI? Quebec lacks a team at the moment, oui?
Here are some (definitely not presented as definitive) answers...
1) The NHL does have a shared revenue system, implemented as part of the new collective bargaining agreement reached following the lockout that resulted in cancellation of the 2004-05 season. Unlike the NFL and NBA and MLB, which feature even shares of broadcast revenue, pre-determined splits of gate receipts (which vary by league) and baseball's so-called "luxury tax", the NHL's system is much more complex. Teams must pre-qualify for a stake of redistributed funds, which the league has set at 4.5% of total revenues. There are three requirements that must be met to qualify:
- Must be among the 15 lowest (bottom half) in terms of gross regular season revenues.
- Have an available player compensation that is below the pre-established payroll midpoint (which varies annually).
- Be located in a designated metropolitan area with less than 2.5 million tv households.
Teams that meet all three of those criteria are eligible for a share of the revenue to be shared which comes from four sources: centrally generated league revenue (tv, sponsors, merchandise, etc.), escrow funding (taken from the escrow accounts of the top ten revenue generating teams), playoff ticket revenue (all teams in the playoffs are taxed a a varying percentage of each playoff ticket sold) and supplemental funding (in which the top ten teams are hit up again).
So in answer to the question asked: no, not by itself. While small market teams are the obvious beneficiary of this plan (certain teams have no chance of ever even qualifying for these funds, based solely on the markets in which they play), a share of that 4.5% (think $10-$15 million) is a nice chunk of change to bolster your payroll but not nearly enough to operate a franchise.
2) To me, this is the big question that sports leagues have to figure out going forward, with the NBA and NFL leading the way by exploring the feasability of markets that lie beyond North America. Just about any place in the US and Canada that would seem to be able to support a team has already been tapped or is otherwise unsuitable. For example, the ones mentioned in this question...
- Hampton Roads (Norfolk/Virginia Beach) Less than 200 miles from Raleigh, North Carolina (Hurricanes) and less than 200 miles from Washington DC (Capitals)
- Cincinnati - Just over 100 miles from Columbus (Blue Jackets). Cleveland would be far enough away, but the Barons didn't do well there.
- Birmingham & Iowa - These are actually intriguing possibilities. They're smaller markets but isolated enough to not have to worry about competing with nearby big cities. Plus, they've certainly demonstrated the ability to support major college and minor league sports. Ideally, are these the kinds of places the major sports leagues are looking for? Probably not, but they might not have much of a choice any more. After all, the NBA moved into Oklahoma City and the NFL's current world champion plays in Green Bay...
- Connecticut - Hartford, presumably? The Whalers were probably their one and only shot. It would be tough to try to carve out a niche...again...being located less than three hours from both Boston and New York.
- Providence R.I. - Less than an hour's drive to Boston
- Quebec - I'm going to assume this is a shot at the Montreal Canadiens, non?
- Metropolitan areas not listed - Seattle, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Houston, San Francisco/Oakland, Salt Lake City, San Diego, Kansas City, Louisville. Suitable or not? More suitable than Atlanta? Hard to say. A factor to consider for ALL of these areas is their arena situations. Do they have one ready to go that's up to current league standards? If not, you're just setting up for another move. Are these places that will be able to book, and sell tickets for, concerts, circuses and all the other events that would allow a 15-20,000 seat arena to turn a profit? When you're expanding a sports league, you're also expanding the demands on a region's entertainment dollar beyond the needs of your franchise. Cities simply can't afford to build facilities that are going to sit dark 250 nights a year and I'm not sure there are enough people in and around Des Moines, Iowa, to shell out for Lady Gaga, The Wiggles and four NHL home games over a two-week span.
So actually, these aren't answers at all. They're just more questions, questions that owners and commisioners in ALL the major leagues are going to have to answer in the near future.
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SF / Oakland actually already have a team
…though it plays in San Jose.
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
Kansas City
They actually have an NHL capable arena ready, the Sprint Center. It holds 17,752 for hockey and is right in the heart of downtown KC. And assuming Seattle can line up an owner (Microsoft anyone?)and get an arena built, I think they would be a GREAT market for the NHL.
People want a new NHL/NBA arena in Seattle when tax payers are still paying for Qwest Field & Safeco Field? Good look with that. Not going to happen any time soon.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Seattle
After they were basically robbed of the Sonics I feel that they would be very open to the NHL returning
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
Follow me @8kpower
by Kevin Power on Jun 7, 2011 11:00 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
One huge drawback – no building. And they won’t be getting one any time soon, either. So that’s not going to happen.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
This
As discussed in another thread.
"[The Lightning] are uncanny. When they want to get a goal, it's like they just snap their fingers or hit a button. They just dial it up. You can see it. It's like they flip a switch. When they are down, it's just like they think, 'we know we are going to score.' I don't know what it is, it leaves [the opposition] flabbergasted." - Mike Knuble, 3 May 2011
I feel like I should write up a post on this since people just aren’t getting it.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
Check yoru email.
Typing is an adventure, and reading should be, too!
Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Jun 7, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd be happy to co-author...
"[The Lightning] are uncanny. When they want to get a goal, it's like they just snap their fingers or hit a button. They just dial it up. You can see it. It's like they flip a switch. When they are down, it's just like they think, 'we know we are going to score.' I don't know what it is, it leaves [the opposition] flabbergasted." - Mike Knuble, 3 May 2011
Okay, it’s a deal. I know a guy who works at KOMO who’s willing to help out with the “historical” stuff – the Key Arena debacle and all of that. This might take a couple of posts, now that I’m thinking about it. Might as well cover everything so that people might finally get the picture.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
pssh
just freeze over a lake or whatever 41 times a year
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
Follow me @8kpower
Another question
Do we really need to expand the league in the next few years? Would it be advisable to let the dust settle, so to speak? Or are we in a grow or die situation? This sports business stuff is all new to me (I usually just watch games), so I want to see what y’all have to say.
Goaleez R weerd.
It’s not so much expanding as it is relocation. There are places struggling to fill buildings. (Yeah, I’m looking at you, New Jersey and Long Island.) Having options to relocate is probably more important than anything else at the moment.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
and. . . gasp. . . they aren't in the South
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Jun 7, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Shocking, I know. It’s the NHL’s dirty little secret – the elephant in the room. No one wants to talk about that. :o\
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, except that the R-word scares me
I still get a little anxious about the idea that selling out games will be the determining factor in whether I get to watch my boys (both Nashville and Tampa) in the coming years. As I’m in Nashville I get a little more info about the Preds attendance, and we sold out 16 regular season games this year. While that’s up from 4 last year, it’s scary if sellouts are the main thing we look at. Not so long ago we (Nashville) had (bad, evil, horrible) ownership threatening us fans with relocation over our attendance numbers. We’ve shown, though, that good ownership and good relations with the public will make a huge difference. Attendance in the South then may be less a function of the popularity of The Sport than of the ability of a franchise to communicate with its city.
So what should be the criteria for determining if there really is an untapped market?
Goaleez R weerd.
Oh, I have a whole laundry list of things. But, apparently – for the NHL, at least – all you need is a willing ownership and a building. And then, you too, can own an NHL team! Unless you’re Jim Balsillie, that is.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think expansion is the answer at this point.
The league is watered down enough as it is and they expanded like crazy in the 90’s. It’s easily arguable that 30 teams is too much. Anything beyond 30 is unarguably too much.
There might be over 30 markets that are deserving of an NHL franchise, perhaps, but sometimes decisions have to be made and stuck with. I wouldn’t want teams added in Quebec and Seattle, for instance, if it saps the quality of the league down even more.
Now on Twitter @Carcillo_
http://twitter.com/#!/Carcillo_
by FloridaownsFSU on Jun 7, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It can certainly be argued that 30 teams is too many
But 32 is a really nice number logistically, so I wouldn’t be totally shocked if we get to that point eventually. Still, the NHL has some financial issues to work out first.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Jun 7, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Expansion is not a front-burner issue right now
and shouldn’t be for a long time, for lots of reasons. But by the same token, professional sports is a business and a common axiom in business is that if you’re not growing, you’re shrinking. So it’s something that will always be in their (league owners) minds. Granted, there are other ways to grow a business other than putting a franchise within 100 miles of every zip code, but not a lot of them have the sex appeal of the instant cash infusion of expansion teams.
by Clark J Brooks on Jun 7, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Ownership matters
The flash and the big headlines are made by players, coaches, and general managers, but the ownership of teams—regardless of sport—does matter. A lot.
Look at any organization—the head of the organization, whether that person is labeled “owner,” “CEO,” or —leadership matters. I believe, as a member of the military, that’s one reason why our military is as good as it is.
"[The Lightning] are uncanny. When they want to get a goal, it's like they just snap their fingers or hit a button. They just dial it up. You can see it. It's like they flip a switch. When they are down, it's just like they think, 'we know we are going to score.' I don't know what it is, it leaves [the opposition] flabbergasted." - Mike Knuble, 3 May 2011
Louisville isn't likely.
two options exist for the arena: Freedom Hall and the KFC Yum! Center. Both have draw backs.
Freedom Hall would need a major renovation. And when I say “major”, I mean MMAAJJOORR. The arena is now 55 years old so there are obviously going to be some issues. The suites are small, the floor is huge. If they were going to replace the seats in an effort to make the arena more modern, they could rework the end zone seating, which is needed as seen here (the old arena football team would have the field backed up against a partially extended seating section and the other end was fully retracted and used a varying types of fan zone).
The KFC Yum! Center seems to have a large enough floor to host hockey but I’m not sure if it has ice capabilities right now. Even if it did there’s a reason an brand new 22K seat arena isn’t even being considered by the NBA: both UofL basketball teams have scheduling priority over anything. If an NHL or NBA team came into the building, they’d automatically be 3rd string.
•Providence R.I. – Less than an hour’s drive to Boston
And the Bruins’ AHL team affiliate already plays there.
So? The Canucks AHL affiliate plays in Winnipeg. Or, they did. Not sure how that works now.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 7, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
it isn't a problem on its own, but the combination with the proximity would make a Providence team a little strange
the drive is only 45 minutes, and Providence has a commuter train into Boston.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Go Bolts! Out West, go Preds! Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Jun 7, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
The Wolves and Blackhawks are co-located as well.
"[The Lightning] are uncanny. When they want to get a goal, it's like they just snap their fingers or hit a button. They just dial it up. You can see it. It's like they flip a switch. When they are down, it's just like they think, 'we know we are going to score.' I don't know what it is, it leaves [the opposition] flabbergasted." - Mike Knuble, 3 May 2011
Different as they play in different arenas.
There isn’t another suitable arena in Providence. And Chicago is big enough to host at least 2 pro teams (it will host 3 next season with the NHL, AHL, and ECHL in the Chicagoland area as well as USHL, NAHL, NA3HL, and varius midget teams).
by geoffissiffoeg on Jun 10, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The contract was up anyway.
They’re looking for a new home for their prospects.
by geoffissiffoeg on Jun 10, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't ask about major cities like Seattle and San Francisco because I knew San Jose and Vancouver were close markets
I didn’t realize Hampton Roads area would be considered that close to DC or Charlotte. But then again, the mid-Atlantic and Northeast corridor are densely packed populated areas.
Thanks for explaining the shared revenue system for the NHL, and you’re right it doesn’t look like enough money to keep small market teams afloat. I think the NFL has more money to share around by comparison.
As for Quebec, it wasn’t a snipe at Montreal, I was referring to the city Quebec not the province.
Time to shamelessly plug my book and short story!
Seattle’s a three-hour drive from Vancouver – and that’s not including the border crossing, which can add as much as three more hours to your time. That depends entirely upon the time of year and what border crossing you’re using, tho. And Seattle to Portland is about three hours as well. Seattle to San Jose is something like a 14-hour drive – so, really, not so close.
Win or lose, I'm proud of these guys.
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.
by Cassie McClellan on Jun 8, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
























