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Analyzing Lightning centers: who's good at what?

We're still grumbling about the heat of the summer and looking longingly towards September's gift of cooler weather and--more importantly--the start of training camp. But that hasn't stopped Puck Daddy from looking ahead to the upcoming season, and it won't stop us either. Their preseason rankings at center had both Vincent Lecavalier and Steven Stamkos ranked in the NHL's top 15, but with Vinny's 19 playoff points (good for 6th in the NHL) and general clutch performance fresh in our minds, there were some questions about ranking Lecavalier six spots below Stamkos.

So, with that as a jumping off point, we thought it'd be a good idea to go back through the stats and compare players, and not just Vinny and Stammer. Because I'm the one on an academic calendar, I had enough time on my hands to see what I can find. But before I present it, I will must give the disclaimer that I'm fairly new to hockey stats, so if I say something idiotic, please be gentle with your public humiliation. As a second caveat, I must note that Puck Daddy was looking ahead to next year, not judging last year. So projections of growth for Stamkos, who's still only 21 years old and just went through his first ever playoff appearance, may warrant ranking him about Lecavalier, whether or not past performance does. 

Today, we'll start with centers. The Lightning have about 26 million players listed at center, so I cut the list to those who played more than half a season at the NHL level and took a look. The results? Apparently, in the grand surprise of the century, our coaching staff knows what they're doing. Production corresponds very well to time on the ice. And when I say production, I mean goal-scoring, point-producing, and contributing to the success of the team (as measured by goals scored when a player is on the ice), relativized to time on the ice.  Anybody could see that Stamkos scores more goals than any of the other centers, but he did play 20 more games than Lecavalier. But when you examine goals scored per 60 minutes of ice time, Stamkos still stands head and shoulders above the pack. 

Specific thoughts on each player after the jump (if you're scared of numbers, skip to the end of the bullet points). 

Star-divide



TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GFON/PP60 GFOFF/PP60 FO%
Steven Stamkos 14.6 1.35 1.35 2.71 3.51 2.12 7.23 4.02 46.5

 

  • Steven Stamkos. We all knew he could score, so the stats come as no surprise, but the numbers are impressive. Scores 1.35 goals per 60 minutes of even strength ice time and assists another 1.35, bringing his point total to 2.71 per 60 even strength minutes. While this doesn't approach Sydney Crosby's jaw-dropping 3.98, it edges Alex Ovechkin's 2.59 and easily surpasses Vincent Lecavalier's 1.63. 
  • When Stamkos is on the ice, the team scores 3.51 goals per 60 even strength minutes (allowing 2.61), compared to just 2.12 when he's on the bench. The power play numbers are even more staggering, as Stamkos' line produces 7.23 goals per 60 five on four minutes, compared to just 4.02 when Stamkos is not on the ice. 
  • Although Lightning fans can point to issues in consistency, the only statistical problem I can find with Stamkos' game is his faceoff numbers, which, at a winning percentage of just 46.5, could use some improvement.

TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GFON/PP60 GFOFF/PP60 FO%










Vincent Lecavalier 13.56 0.82 0.81 1.63 2.86 2.5 5.42 5.55 50.9
  • While Vincent Lecavalier's scoring numbers pale in comparison, they're not too unlike other centers who were similarly ranked in the Puck Daddy preview. He scores .82 goals and nets .81 assists, for 1.63 points per 60 minutes of even strength ice time, a bit below the 2.00 for Ryan Kesler, 1.86 for Eric Staal, and 1.71 for Joe Thornton, but not dramatically so. 
  • When Lecavalier is on the ice, the Bolts score 2.86 goals per 60 even strength minutes (and give up 2.52), compared to just 2.50 when he's on the bench, so he's obviously a positive influence on offense. He does not, however, stand out on the power play, as the Bolts score 5.42 goals per 60 five on four minutes with Vinny and 5.55 without him. This, of course, may not point to the failings of Lecavalier so much as the strength of the Lightning power play. 
  • In addition to bringing solid leadership and outstanding playoff performance, Vinny stands above Stamkos at the dot, where he is slightly above average, winning 50.9% of a team-leading 1161 attempts. 

TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GAON/PK60 GAOFF/PK60 FO%










Dominic Moore 12.21 0.77 0.77 1.53 2.23 2.68 6.64 4.3 53.2
  • In what may come as a surprise, Dominic Moore does not lag far behind Lecavalier in offensive production, with .77 goals, .77 assists, and 1.53 points per 60 even strength minutes. 
  • However, although the individual scoring totals are similar, team scoring with Moore's line in the game falls off significantly from Lecavalier's (as expected). Per 60 even strength minutes with Moore on the ice, the Lightning score 2.23 goals (and allow 3.13), compared to 2.68 with Moore on the bench. Additionally, Moore's penalty kill numbers are by far the weakest of the center crop, with the Bolts allowing 6.46(!) goals per 60 four on five minutes with Moore and just 4.30 without him. (Bear in mind, however, that because there are fewer forwards during a kill, the sample size for four on five is roughly half the sample size for Stammer and Vinny in the five on four). 
  • He is, however, strong at the dot, winning 53.2% of 892 attempts

TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GAON/PK60 GAOFF/PK60 FO%










Nate Thompson 11.85 0.51 0.77 1.28 1.8 2.79 4.17 5.07 54.2
  • Nate Thompson, as expected, produces just .51 goals and .77 assists, for 1.28 points per even strength 60. 
  • The team produces 1.80 goals (2.31 against) during 60 even strength minutes with Thompson and 2.79 without him. He is, however, a boon on the penalty kill, as a Thompson-led unit allows 4.17 goals per 60 four on five minutes, and the team allows 5.07 without him. 
  • Thompson is also the strongest center in the faceoff circle, winning 54.2% of 664 attempts, contributing to his reputation as a player who does the little things right. 

TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GAON/PK60 GAOFF/PK60 FO%










Dana Tyrell 10.15 0.45 0.61 1.06 1.52 2.85 3.72 5.73 N/A
  • Dana Tyrell, in his rookie year, produced .45 goals and .61 assists for 1.06 points per 60 even strength minutes. 
  • When he was on the ice, the team scored 1.52 goals per 60 (allowing 2.05) compared to 2.85 without him. However, Tyrell's penalty kill numbers are the best among Lightning centers, as his unit allowed just 3.20 goals per 60 four on five minutes, compared to 5.73 allowed by the PK without him! (And he pretty much never tries faceoffs)

TOI/E60 G/E60 A/E60 P/E60 GFON/E60 GFOFF/E60 GAON/PK60 GAOFF/PK60 FO%










Tom Pyatt 8.35 0.24 0.35 0.59 1.18 2.51 5 3.67 50
  • Last (and actually least) is the newcomer Tom Pyatt, who scored .24 goals and .35 assists, for .59 points per even strength 60 minutes with the Monreal Candadiens. 
  • When on the ice, his team scored 1.18 goals per even 60 (and allowed 1.53) compared to 2.51 without him. He spent more time on the kill than any Lightning center, but his numbers were subpar, as his unit allowed 5.00 goals per 60 minutes of four on five, compared to 3.67 without him. 
  • Pyatt manages average in one category, winning exactly 50% of his 110 faceoff opportunities. 

IF YOU SKIPPED THE BULLETS, START READING HERE


So those were a lot of statistics that may or may not have been interesting. What's the takeaway? First, as I said, the coaches know what they're doing. The guys who are producing are on better lines and are playing more. Having solid linemates surely helps Stamkos and Lecavalier, but a player doesn't automatically produce with good teammates, and they do.

The second thing that jumps out is how big a difference Stamkos makes. He scores at a fantastic rate, and the offense is vastly better when he's on the ice. I dare say I won't get much argument when I say he deserved that new contract.

The third thing that I found interesting was the penalty kill numbers. It didn't surprise me much to find that Stamkos did well on the power play and that Lecavalier was average. But Dana Tyrell's beastly penalty kill numbers raised an eyebrow, as did Dominic Moore's poor ones. Admittedly, the penalty kill sample size is smaller than the power play sample size, but I want Nate Thompson and Dana Tyrell on the kill. Please.

And finally, there's a reason Pyatt signed a two-way contract. But he's still young. 

This post was written by a member of the Raw Charge community and doesn't necessarily express the views or opinions of Raw Charge staff.

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Why Vinny Will be better

You have to keep in mind, the players around you, the coaching scheme, and the general chemistry of any team in a particular year has an effect on the players performance (also injury) Going to the games over the last 12 years and watching Vinny’s career has been like watching a jekle and hyde movie. Torts pushed Vinny to be the best he could be, and yes they banged heads but Vinny responded, then when Torts left Vinny became lazy. cherrypicking, waiting for the one timer to keep his numbers up. This was with losing teams and by doing this game by game.(Watch Ovie when the caps come to town) I watched his hand skills diminish over this period of time. Last year the real Vinny showed up complete with the hard skating hand skills and new box out tricks to control the puck. They kicked in complete at the Penguin game and Vinny was awesome. Guy Boucher has been quiet about the work he does with Vinny, but the difference is clear and my prediction is you will see a monster 40+ goals 40A this year. This is the year you will actually believe Vinny" IS" the Capt. of the Tampa bay Lightning.

by bolt69 on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Vinny’s always been one of those players that needs to be pushed in order to play well. I think the added responsibility of being captain has helped with that as well. Before, when he was captain, it was all an ego thing. Now he knows what it takes to be a true captain, and that’s also helped immensely with his play because he feels responsible for everyone, not just himself. It’s that added pressure that’s helping him. But the biggest factor is that he has a demanding coach who’s also pushing him, like you’ve said.

Counting down the days until players report to training camp. Is it September yet?
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Aug 2, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very nicely done, Jay! :o)

Counting down the days until players report to training camp. Is it September yet?
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Aug 2, 2011 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Seconded.

Looking forward to the next installments.

"The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect"
- Smith in Orwell's 1984

by MTBoltFan on Aug 2, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well done, and thank you.

I’m quite impressed (and slightly startled) that I actually understood a lot of this. Usually the numbers go in one ear and out the other for me.

I have a small question: How much PK time have Thompson and Tyrell been getting? (compared to the other centers)

Are you planning on doing this sort of thing for any other positions? If you or someone else would do it, I’d love to see it.

"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Aug 2, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Vinny and Stamkos have about 4 PP minutes per game (for reference)

Our top three most-used killing centers are Nate Thompson (with 2.55 kill minutes per game), Dominic Moore (with 2.05) and Dana Tyrell (with 1.68). Admittedly, one season can be a small sample size, but the numbers suggested that Tyrell get more time and Moore get less.

However, in the playoffs, Tyrell was by far our worst killing center, and Moore and Thompson were both very, very good (and were rewarded with more pk time). Realizing that one playoff run is a very small sample size and that Tyrell was a rookie going through his first playoffs, I’m still optimistic about Tyrell’s future on the kill. However, I’m hoping that Moore’s run was proof that he can elevate his game and not just a run of good luck, because his regular season numbers were very bad. We all know what Thompson can do, and he—not surprisingly—kept doing it in the postseason.

And if there’s enough interest, I could definitely do something very similar to this for RW and LW. For the defense, I’ll have to look again at what stats have been compiled and see what looks important, because goals and assists will just tell us that MAB is our best defenseman.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 2, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would very much like to have some more in-depth understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the players going into the season, so I can have a better idea of what to look for.

I know it’s not goals and assists for defense, and that plus-minus is supposed to be wonky somehow. Beyond that the only thing that makes any sense to me is offensive zone vs defensive zone starts, and that doesn’t really tell anything except how much the coach trusts the players (or at least that’s what I take away from it.) I have no idea what Corsi is, so I always just skip any paragraph with that word in it. ;) What I (the goalie freak) look for in a defenseman is how they protect the goalie’s angles, take away the lanes, or block shots, and how they do at forcing d-zone turnovers and clearing the zone. Is there any kind of stat for that?

"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Aug 2, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, there's no "protect the lanes" statistic

maybe opponent shot percentage? That might be a thing. I would expect to find blocked shot numbers somewhere, although I haven’t seen them yet. I wish there were a “held opposing forwards below their scoring average” stat, but I doubt it’s been compiled anywhere. Defensive stats seem a little more sparse in general.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 2, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

One thing I missed on the first run here

That I think is worthy of note,

In the playoffs, Vinny had almost Stamkos numbers with 2.41 points per even 60 (although that’s heavily reliant on a very high assist total), and the team scored 3.50 when he was on compared to 2.40 when he was off. Stamkos had Dominic Moore numbers, with 1.54 points per even 60. The team scored 1.76 when he was on and 3.23 when he was off.

So basically, the statistics confirm that Stamkos had an awful postseason run and that Vinny really elevated his game. Hopefully the latter is a pattern and the former isn’t.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 2, 2011 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Another question

How much of Stamkos’s poor playoffs was due to him being shut down and how much was due to something about his play? In other words, how much was due to facing good defenses and how much was due to something he personally had control over? And how do we figure that out?

"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Aug 2, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stamkos is good enough that there shouldn't be defenses that can just shut him down

but there is something to that, as the whole first line didn’t contribute a lot of scoring in the postseason. Marty had better individual numbers (1.80 P/E60 to Stammer’s 1.54), but we still only scored 1.80* per even 60 with him on the ice compared to 3.28 with him off it. And no one thinks Marty had a poor postseason.

One thing I’ve been looking at is the special teams numbers, because I think that’s the best way we have to adjust for competition. Everybody who’s on the power play is facing the best defense the opponents can throw out, so there’s none of this “Stamkos plays against the first pairing and then Vinny and the 2nd line take advantage of a weaker defense” bit. And on the power play, Vinny and Marty both look like average Bolts (we’re scoring about the same with them and without them), but Stamkos is again below average (we scored 8.67 with him and 13.30 without him). Again, I must scream SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, but there isn’t any measure I can find that makes Stamkos’ playoffs look pretty.

*And yes, I do think that Marty having 1.80 points per 60 in the playoffs and that us scoring 1.80 per 60 with him on the ice means that he was involved in every scoring play in which he was in the game. Someone can correct me if I’m off base here.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 2, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do think that Marty . . . was involved in every scoring play in which he was in the game.

I love Marty. :)

I get what you’re saying about Stamkos, but it does happen that way. For Vancouver, for instance, the Sedins were definitely bothered by Chicago and completely shut down by both Nashville and Boston. Their San Jose series showed that they still could click in the right circumstances, but they were absolutely invisible when faced with Weber (Oh Shea! Please stay in Nashville!) or Chara and the defenses they led.

"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great work.

Nice to read here in the wasteland that is August. :)

you're not defending him are you?
are you his mom?

by toppleprone on Jun 7, 2011 9:43 PM EDT

My Twitter- follow for NHL updates

by SnipeShot on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Some Other Regular Season Stats Worth Mentioning

Blocked Shots:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstatsprint.htm?fetchKey=20112TBLCACAll&viewName=rtssPlayerStats&sort=blockedShots

Take Aways:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstatsprint.htm?fetchKey=20112TBLCACAll&sort=takeaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

Give Aways (THIS IS REALLY WHERE STAMMER STRUGGLES):
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstatsprint.htm?fetchKey=20112TBLCACAll&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

+/- Highlighting Goals Against:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstatsprint.htm?fetchKey=20112TBLCACAll&viewName=plusMinus&sort=teamGoalsAgainst

Those turnovers result in goals. What’s amazing is that, considering his ice time, Vinny’s pretty low on that list.

Sorry for linking with out posting them here, the comment system won’t let me post html tables.

"System Trumps Chumps" - Tampa t

by tankerkevo on Aug 2, 2011 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks, good stuff

and guess who has the best takeaway/giveaway ratio? Nate Thompson. Is he going to be the best at every single “little thing” stat recorded?

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 2, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

A stat I wish was tracked...

On my high school team we kept a mental tally of “track downs”; which were pucks dumped/played into open ice to relieve pressure situations, done by either team, that were collected or tracked down by a player. It’s a sign of hustle, and especially important in less “mature” leagues of hockey where a lot of dumping and misplaced passes occur. But these situations happen even in the NHL and it’s fun watching Thompson because he’s deceptively fast and tracks a lot of them down.

"System Trumps Chumps" - Tampa t

by tankerkevo on Aug 2, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Vinny’s much better defensively than most people give him credit for.

Counting down the days until players report to training camp. Is it September yet?
Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Follow me on Twitter: @dagmar27.

by Cassie McClellan on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm gaining a lot more respect for Thompson

"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Aug 2, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dominic Moore is a boss. That is all.

(Awesome post btw)

The unaimed arrow never misses
I miss you already Olesz. What we had was tight. Still pulling for those 85 goals you were going to score under Dineen. Chicago will appreciate them, I'm sure.
Twitterz Marmotz Boudreauz

by Chris S Roberts on Aug 2, 2011 3:55 PM EDT reply actions  

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